Dr. Zink

Thinking about a new C trumpet and recently I seem to be intrigued (maybe its just in my head) by copper bell horns. Anybody have any thoughts on the Kanstul C?

Dr. Z

Vulgano Brother

It does everything I think a C trumpet should. It can sound pretty and sweet yet still get a nice in-your-face nasty loud sound. Because copper bells get brighter when pushed, what it doesn't do very well is sound pretty and sweet at fff. For that, we have sterling silver bells, and like stated at the beginning, I think the Kanstul C does everything a C trumpet should.

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rowuk

Manufacturing techniques let us build trumpet bells out of just about anything these days. Whether or not a copper bell would be suitable, depends on a lot more than the bell!
Assuming musical taste, a good cooperative relationship with the ensembles that will experience that horn and your ability to meet the expectations of the contractor, you should be just fine.
The Kanstul happens to be one of the VERY good horns out there - but I would still insist "play before you pay"!
Brass, gold brass and sterling silver are the materials professionals commonly choose for their C trumpet bells. If you can stretch the envelope and get away with it - FANTASTIC. I think we need MUCH more of this!

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Mr. Stomvi

Might I suggest you take a look at modular horn designs. Having interchangable bells makes choosing bell materials, tapers, materials, finishes a WHOLE lot easier.

Some models to think about.

Stomvi Master Ti series with interchangable leadpipes, tuning crooks, and bells. Lots of different bell weights, materials, tapers, finishes to choose from. And yes, they have copper bells and they are to die for.

Will Spencer's modular conversion Bach's. I've heard nothing but positive things about Will's work. Gives ya interchangable bell and leadpipe features.

There are a few others but I would start there.

Good luck

Seth Moore

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The "Flattergrub" or literally, the "uncouth flutter" was the very descriptive term that the Germans had for the pedal tone. Apparently some players could produce a "Flattergrub" and nothing more.

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"The Cornet Compendium"

Dr. Zink

Please do elaborate.

DrZ

rowuk

Dr. Z,
I think that we always need to "stretch the envelope" when it comes to anything artistic. I feel a need for more color, more personality, less standardization and more attention to detail.
Of course you need an ensemble that is willing to be creative to get away with a departure from the status quo. We have many recordings of Pictures at an Exhibition - the intro with a huge sound and powerful playing. Imagine the museum visitor being a dainty lady in high heels instead of a 250 Lb lumberjack with big boots and you have one example of a variation that could still have musical substance - even if the trumpet jocks are not impressed. Actually, in most european museums that I have visited, even the lumberjacks do not march around very powerfully..................
Imagine Miles or Ingrid Jensen playing Mercy, Mercy, Mercy - compare that to the original Buddy Rich jackhammer version.
Assorted hardware can offer different basic traits. I really enjoy using those possibilities! I have many opportunities to use these various colors in a concert setting.
I played a Haydn the Seasons on the natural trumpet last week. The piece took on a new meaning to me! The same thing happened a couple of years ago with the Mozart Requiem. The nat gave me a better image of heaven and hell. West Side Story Symphonic Dances - the D trumpet part I played on my Bb with a lead mouthpiece - it rocked!!!!! Holst Planets - Saturn with a section of wailing Bb trumpets - a sizzle that no C can match! I do not mind shooting bullets or arrows or playing flame thrower, but balance that with sweetness so intense, that insulin would be a better choice than valve oil. Unique can be a very positive trait, if we give it a chance AND do not allow ourselves to become like ticky-tacky where we all look just the same.........

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

Dr. Zink

[quote=rowuk;317107]I think that we always need to "stretch the envelope" when it comes to anything artistic.quote]

I'm not so sure about "stretching" the envelope. I'd like to see the envelope go back to where it was umpteen years ago (admittedly I'd be hard pressed to say actually when in terms of the timbrel ideal to which I am referring). I'm just not fond of the present day trend toward brightness and cutting timbres. I think blending is something that we've lost sight of. Not every piece with trumpets should come across as a trumpet concerto.

I agree whole heartedly with your comments by the way. It is interesting that on another thread elswhere regarding preparing for an audition, one of the pieces of advice that was given was to listen to recordings. While that certainly can be good (learning subtleties of context etc), I fear that the tendency is to emulate, if not downright imitate, what is heard. Is there no individuality anymore? Must we all try to imitate Herseth et al.? (I've never really been a fan of his by the way). Have we, individually, nothing to say with the music, or must we say what has already been said? Safe bet I suppose, as it could very well get you the gig. Ah the bottom line rears its ugly head again.

Color, yes, more color! While I prefer a darker timbre for trumpets (NB., I've played exclusively historical brass instruments for the last 25 years) I think we have lost sight of the joy of tonal colors. Admittedly that's not so much a trumpet thing as it is a woodwind issue. Every semester I deal with naive students who think that their modern flute/oboe etc is perfection and the answer to those crappy old instruments of eras gone by. I'm sure you see where I'm going with this... Where is the timbrel character in the music? I know, there's only so much you can do in equal temperement. AHHHH!!! there's just so much to say...

Suffice it to say, as this thread originated, I'm considering a new C trumpet and am intrigued by copper belled instruments just because they potentially don't sound like every other C. Nevertheless, just looking for testimonials.

rant over.

Dr. Z

rowuk

[quote=Dr. Zink;317117]When you listen to some of the cuban bands, you discover that bright can also blend VERY well! The envelope can be stretched in many directions: dark, light, broad, articulate, golden, silvery, with a halo or with horns and a forked tail.
I've gone back and tried to put a finger on the ideal section sound. It is tough because I have been exposed to a lot of european influence. For some things the old Berliner Philharmoniker is the benchmark, for other things Vienna. I really digged Gil Johnsons playing in Philadelphia under Ormandy and Bud Herseths under Fritz Reiner. While all of the solo players are brilliant, the second players created the section sound and didn't always get the credits that they deserved.
Bud Herseth got a job and kept it, that is a good reason to take a look at what made him special. Unfortunately most orchestras are not looking to redefine the standard repertory. I am greatful that a few conductors have discovered the additional colors that a cornet, natural trumpet or rotary horn can offer.
A new horn is something to get worked up about. That copper belled horn will not bring you closer to a historically correct section blend - unless your colleagues entertain similar ventures. I am lucky-my second player in the symphony and brass quintet has bought my Ajna2 (I have a Prana3 coming this month). We will take great joy in our non-standard section blend. I have matched historical Bb rotaries(1936 and 1938) too when they are suitable(actually quite often).

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

regularsopguy

I like the kanstul C trumpets. some say that they slot different but there are certainly no intonation or blending issues that i can tell! for me the copper bell model is harder to control (maybe its the big bore or the copper bell?) so i think i prefer the 1510-A which is more bach like.

Dr. Zink

Wasn't the old Martin Committee C a copper bell horn?

Dr.Z