B15M

It just seemed like it to me.

Below you will find a post where you say that you don't care for Shilke but they build the trumpet correctly. If you don't care for Eclipse why do they build the trumpet wrong? Then a swipe at Monette owners saying that if we found a Monette in a shop and the owner didn't know what it was worth, we would steel it. I didn't like that comment then and I don't like the idea now that Eclipse is building their trumpets too long.

As you would say; "It sounds to me like someone has a chip on their shoulder"




Re: Schilke B5 - what a suprise! Yamaha makes a really good trumpet. Sounds like there are some strange price things going on up there. I'd recommend playing a number of Bachs as well but who knows what is going on with the strike. I've never really cared for Schilke big horns. Love the small horns. This NY7 sounds interesting.

Re: Schilke B5 - what a surprise!

I find it hard to believe Schilke built the trumpet wrong. Anything is possible but I really doubt it.


Re: Monette 149XL


I wouldn't be surprised if some of you guys calling this poster out might do the same exact thing if you came across a Monette

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Gene

OK Guys and gals, back to the original issue raised.

I have been implementing the well intended advice from Noel and others. The middle G was exactly as he said. I have yet to do it with the mute but will. His comment re the shortening of the first valve was exactly my thought when it was suggested as well. As I have previously said I have no intention of "doctoring" the horn.

The fourth space E test was very interesting. All was as he said on the Eclispe. Open and the third valve on the other horns was close. 1 & 2 were sharp. All three were all over the place on both my other horns!


I have not done the gap test but will. I also tried two other mouthpieces with tighter backbores. A GR Artist Model NB 64 5S with I think their #2 Backbore and a Curry 60M. They both also are shallow cups and did sharpen the notes. If this is a remedy then I need to find one with a deeper cup i.e. close to the Curry 5C and rim that I am using.

I would also point out but not belabor that my attempts to contact Eclipse back in March where the same as Mike's. I realize they are busy people and I think at that time they were expanding faclities and dealers. I also did not specifically mention the flat issue as I expected it to take some time to get use to the new blow. I have no ill will for not hearing from them directly. After much thought I brought this here (where the best of the best are) looking for some experienced direction. The manner in which some of the nerves has flarred here was not my intention. I readily gave my playing level. I do love this horn and will continue corresponding with Noel and others them being willing and me being optimistic that the head behind the horn is the major issue. I am of the opinion this is not an isolated delima and hopefully will benefit others as well.

Thank you all for the positive support.

__________________
Gene

Bb Gplated MR Eclipse
Bb Getzen 3051s
Picc Yamaha 9830

rowuk

Gene,
I really appreciate your attitude! We do have some posters that take the occasional shot at one brand or another without real facts to back it up.

I play in Germany and need my horns to tune to A=443 or 444. I played a Xeno when they came out that just barely got to 443. Yamaha has a guy here near Frankfurt that cut the horn down for the player to correct that.

The chance of the Eclipse being physically too long is rather slim.

If your mouthpiece has an opened up throat, the slots get fuzzier and this could lead to a situation where you think the horn is flat (or sharp depending on your body tension).

In any case you can be sure that Eclipse stands behind their products.

__________________
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

Castle Bravo

I've been playing eclipse horns for a while, and I've heard this before. I've said this before.

In a nutshell (my observation here), those that play on the high end of the pitch center (many times without realizing it) may think something is wrong.

Let your ears be your guide - listen to the quality of the sound first. When you relax and play with a full resonant sound, you may find that you will have to push in a bit to get to A440 - and the horn will be 'cured'. It made me switch to Eclipse for life....
...just my observation.

__________________
Gary Wilder
NATO BigBand, SHAPE Belgium
Webmaster, EclipseTrumpets.com

mike ansberry

Guys, Guys. I am not trying to be disrespectful of the Eclipse company. It is an incredibly generous thing he does with the contest. It could very well be a problem with the way I play. LOTS of people have no trouble at all with their pitch on Eclipse.

I did not say that American players play MORE in the center than European players. I said that I was told (and have no personal experience) by people who play both in Europe and America that in Europe the style is to play a little brighter and a little higher in the center of the pitch. Like I said, I have no personal experience with this, but it would explain why the set up is the way it is.

I have played my Eclipse for more than 2 years. i am used to the horn. I play lots of long tones and fundamental exercises every day. I work at getting as much into the center of each pitch as possible. I have played a wide variety of mouthpieces on it. A lead piece like my Vizzutti does play better in tune on it. But all my bigger mouthpieces with larger back bores play a little flat. Again, that could be a problem with my playing, but I don't have the same problem on the Bach 37. I am in no way wanting to go back to the Bach. I love my Eclipse. I just wish I could work this out. Actually, I think it is a compliment to the incredible sound of the Eclipse that I play it as my main horn even though I do struggle with the intonation.

I will go back and work with some of Noel's suggestions and also check the mouthpiece gap. I am seriously considering building a slightly shorter tuning slide for it that also eliminates the sudden expanion next to the large ferrule of the slide.

__________________
"Music is a fire in your belly that has to come out of your mouth, so you'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt" (paraphrase of Bleeding Gums Murphy)

Eclipse MR in scratch gold
Olds Super/Ultrasonic
Conn 40B
Leblanc Paris large bore with Bach mouthpipe
Bach 37
Olds L-12 Flugel
Benge Picc
Buescher Cornet made in 1914
American Standard (King?) beginner trumpet (crap)

Willing to provide a good home for a stray Conn 48B or Olds Recording

B15M

I might have this wrong but, The original post was about playing flat. If he is playing flat the slide should be all the way in or the thread doesn't make sense

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rowuk

Mike,
there is a very easy technical explanation why mouthpieces with big backbores play flat on some horns and not on others.
If you have ever "tuned" beer bottles by drinking some and blowing over the top, you have discovered that on objects with an irregular shape, the VOLUME determines the pitch. On tubes, the LENGTH determines the pitch. It is perfectly normal that 2 mouthpieces of identical length but with considerably different backbores will play at a different pitch.
The question is why this is not as noticable on a Bach 37. The answer is in the design of the trumpet. Changing the mouthpiece does not change the pitch center of a Bach as much due to the shape of the leadpipe and bell as well as the position of the braces. This has NOTHING to do with the quality of the horn, it is just a design aspect. I used to have a Bach 72* ML and did not need to change the tuning slide regardless if I was playing a Schilke 14A4A or a Bach 1C. That was the only horn that I have ever owned with those characteristics. After I changed it to a tuning bell, I had to adjust when changing mouthpieces. I do not think that Bach did this on purpose, it just happened to work out that way.

__________________
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

lonelyangel

OK - takes a deep breath and wades into the quagmire again - there are a few things I need to add to this lively discussion for the sake of clarity.

Firstly it is worth pointing out that more than 99.9% of trumpet players in the world have never seen an Eclipse trumpet or even heard of the company, let alone had the chance to play one. The company is a very small operation, with only four members of staff, catering to a discerning niche market. Eclipse customers tend to fall into three categories. First are the amateur players with a love of music for whom trumpet playing is a pleasurable hobby. They tend to have disposable income which they are happy to spend indulging their desire to get the most pleasure from their leisure activity as possible and an appreciation for fine, hand-built, state of the art equipment.
The amateur golfer, who might treat themselves to a new set of Tiger Woods clubs and dream of winning a major, is happy to spend thousands of dollars to gain a couple of yards on their drive. However, deep down they do realise that Tiger would still beat them hands down using only a rusty 5 iron held together with duck tape - but its their money and it makes them feel good to have the best equipment money can buy - so that's fine.

The second category of Eclipse player is the serious student - attending university or conservertoire who intends to become a professional player. They are also lucky enough to have a teacher who is open minded enough to allow their students to chose the equipment they feel happiest playing. They probably also have supportive and generous parents, or have won a bursary or grant to buy a new instrument or - having had the chance to play an Eclipse - they go out and work, beg, steal or borrow the money because they know they have to have one.

I have been the trumpet professor at the Guildhall School of Music (one of the four elite conservatoires in London) for the postgraduate jazz course since 1988. The students I have worked with are some of the best young players you could ever hope to hear - many of whom have gone on to lead full and stimulating professional lives.
Yet, when I coach the big band section, or take workshops with the classical students I am always struck by the poor intonation relative to the exacting standards required in the professional world. That is because inspite of attaining sometimes jaw dropping technical facility on their instruments - accurate intonation and sense of pitch centre takes a long long time to develop. I believe it goes hand in hand with a real awareness of your own identity in terms of sound and learning to feel confident in the physical feedback in your chops that you don't overblow in an effort to hear yourself when playiing with others.
I sometimes will spend 2 hours fine tuning an 8 bar section of a piece, building each chord up fromn the bottom until it rings true and resonates - encouraging the players to feel the beats created by each chord and to apprecioate the function of the partial that they are playing - experimenting with balancing the relative volumes of concordant and discordant intervals within a chord - then begining again by building the chord from the top down. Then I get the players to swap parts and repeat the process until each player has experienced playing each voice on each chord and that it is impossible to tell who is playing lead at any given time.

After an hour or so of working like this we might achieve a performance of the passage that approaches the standard expected from a studio section playing at sight!
Don't forget that I am dealing with the cream of young players here and they are facing years of hard work to get this kind of subtle awareness and control of intonation - some of them do not make it.

An Eclipse does not play itself - but it can make the job of playing in tune a little easier if you know what you are trying to achieve.

The last group of Eclipse players are the growing numbers of professional trumpeters who really appreciate the benefits of the instruments and are willing to pay for the very best tools for their trade. They are increasingly likely to have sat next to somebody who is playing an Eclipse and had their curiosity arroused. After perhaps a brief blow on a colleague's horn they will arrange to travel to the factory, from all over Europe, America and the far East to test the full range and pick out a horn from the bench - or have Leigh build one to order.

Professional players are not easily parted with their cash. They could earn a living and make a great sound on a trumpet costing only a few hundred dollars - they have probably been using the same horn for 10 or 20 years with no complaints - yet they hear, or feel enough of a difference with an Eclipse to make them spend more than 10 times that amount - maybe for a 10% improvement in efficiency, projection, intonation - whatever.

Last Sunday I had what is now becoming a rare experience. I played a concert with the Royal Philharmonic and I was the only player out of five using an Eclipse - these days I usually have company. In fact all the other players were using ML Bach 37s - I can't remember the last time that happened. The other guys didn't bat an eyelid at my choice of equipment - I also didn't notice any of them pulling out to match my pitch - I was playing 1st by the way and we were outside on a cold, wet and windy night.

Eclipse trumpets do not play flat. They are not built too long. If that was the case then there would be no professional Eclipse trumpet players.

Just for the record, I do not work for Eclipse and all Eclipse artists buy their horns from the company.

I spoke to Pat Harbison yesterday - he asked me to make it clear that he has never said that Eclipse trumpets are too long for Americans, or any other nationality. Neither is he of the opinion that Europeans play higher on the pitch centre than Americans.

He might have mentioned that some European orchestras tune to A 441, 442 or even higher as Rowuk mentioned - buit to be honest that is becoming increasingly rare as 440 is almost universal these days.
What is odd is that the perception in England is that US players generally have a brighter, more brilliant sound and play slightly sharper than is the norm in the UK where the legacy of the brass band tradition leads to a particularly rich, fat sound on the trumpet being a part of the collective sound concept - hence the absence of C trumpets in our orchestras.

FWIW I have always eventually changed mouthpiece after switching horns - this has been lead by instinct about sound and feel rather than pitch. I have never thought about the mouthpiece gap issue. As far as I know the gap exists purely for practical reasons - ie so that a variety of shank lengths and tapers will fit into the horn. I would think that in an ideal world there should be no gap at all - there is a certain trumpet company who build theuir receivers shorter than normal so that only their own mouthpieces will fit and that there is no gap. However most trumpets are built with a longer receiver - the gap is just a byproduct of inclusive rather than exclusive design. Of course changing the gap on any trumpet will alter the feel and sound of the instrument - as does changing the position of your hands or strength of your grip on the instrument. It may also alter the pitch centre a fraction but my personal point of view is that the diference this might make is entirely insignificant bearing in mind that the biggest variable is always the player.

Just think about whenever you try someones horn - the very first thing you do after playing a note is to adjust the tuning slide to suit the way that you play.

Finally I am happy to say that I am now engaged in a private dialogue with Gene, which seems to be helping him explore the parameters of his new horn - which he really seems to enjoy playing.
If we cannot achieve acceptable results together then we will get the trumpet back to the factory so that Leigh and I can have a look at it - I am confident that there will be no need to resort to the big hammer!

All the best. Noel.

PS good job I didn't opt for a massive font size with a post this long :)

__________________
Noel Langley - Eclipse Artist noel@eclipsetrumpets.com

Eclipse Medium Yellow, scratch gold
Eclipse Medium Heavy Red, custom 'Diamond Back' in 24ct gold
Eclipse Red Brass Flugel
Custom Scherzer piccolo with copper Wedgewood bell, finished in scratch gold
Giardinelli 6S, 6M, 6FL Bach 3CW

Schwab

And I think that wraps up this thread!

__________________
Dylan Schwab
Stage 1 New York

rowuk

Noel,
you are one of the reasons that I like coming to TM! Gene will certainly benefit from such illustrious, personal attention!

Thanks! Robin

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.