Forza review

rjzeller · 03-02-2006, 12:09 PM

I had the good fortune of being able to give this trumpet a ride for a few weeks, and sent the following review to Greg thereafter. Since it appears he's going to send it on tour, I figured I'd start the review process by posting my original comments:

***

I guess to start with -- mirroring your concerns, I don't know how marketable it would be, but it is a good product and would make a nice investment for someone who has very limit $$$ to spend.

It basically performs as well as I would expect from a standard model Bach Strad, with a somewhat more open feel and better intonation. The valves are impressive for a horn that comes from such an old "chassis", as it were.

What I liked:

The intonation is simply outstanding. Just what I would expect from work performed by Mark. With a stock mouthpiece it was so-so, but with my Monette it locked right in. It's not quite as perfect as my C trumpet, but it's darned close.

Feel -- this horn just FEELS good to play. Both in the weight and position on the hands, and the resistance/feel of the blow. I found I could really like this horn if I wasn't used to something as wide open as my Renaissance. Aside from the intonation, this is perhaps its strongest asset. A very comfortable horn. My only gripe is with the first slide saddle...I hate it. Too small for my fat fingers.

Slotting -- You really can't miss here. Either you're playing down the center of the pitch or you're not. If you're not, you either didn't tune correctly or you need to use your slides. This is the one great fault of my Renaissance (or any wide open horn, for that matter) -- the slot points are so wide that you really have to concentrate to get the center of the note. This horn keeps you right there. Reminds me very much of the Getzen custom 3050 models.

What I didn't like:

Not much really. Perhaps the looks, but there's really not much you can do there. The brushed/scratched finish is very well done, though. If it werent' for the pings and few small dents, it'd be quite attractive. Perhaps a gold or silver finish would spiff it up, but then you're adding several hundred extra dollars to the price, which makes the whole project kinda pointless...

Otherwise, the only two issues for me were the tone or sound quality, and the responsiveness. It's nicely focused, and at first I loved it. But I played it for a week solid then went back to my Getzen and the difference was significant. The sound here is more direct, more piercing, more lead-player sound. It's not a "bad" sound, and not even something that most people would likely notice. Just seems more suited to a Warren Bandel type sound than a Richard Zeller type sound. It's very consistent (hard to "color" the sound), but just doesn't mellow out enough for me.

(Some people, though, thought it was quite a loud horn. So I think it really projects well.)

As for the responsiveness, I like a horn to react quickly to what I want it to do. This horn has a way of imposing its will on you, and quick technical passages can be difficult. I'm not speaking about how quickly the valves react, as they are fine. I'm referring to how quickly the horn responds to what you're trying to do with it, and rapid changes in pitch or volume are met with resistance. This is REALLY personal preferrance since some people really need this type of resistance. For me, though, it is a hindrance.

It reminds me very much of the '72 strad I used to play in many ways.

Well..hope that helps. It really is very impressive for the price. If I wanted a second horn for outdoor gigs or pep band or whatever, I'd seriously consider it. Like I said, I'd put it right on par with the Bach Strads (more of a 43 bell feel than a 37, though, IMHO). Considering the price, I'd take that over the Phaeton, but I'd still rather have my Renaissance.

My only other thing is the range -- I didn't want to bully it like I do with pep band and jazz band, so I set the lead piece aside and grabbed my B4. I then played my Getzen from high C through G. C-D-E-F-G. A bit squirelly on the G but otherwise fairly easy and open.

Then I tried the Forza and it shut off completely for me at E and F (usually E gives me fits on all horns, but the F almost never). It spoke again around G, but not being able to play the E would be a killer. I tried it with my lead piece and still had the same problem. Shut off completely at E and F.

I'm not a bonafide lead player like Warren, so I'm sure our appraoches are different. It may do well for him, but I would never be able to use it for lead work. Micah also noted that it seemed more resistive than the Forza you're actually playing on yourself, so perhaps that may explain a bit. But I just thought I'd pop that in there.

anyway...great horn. PLusses and minuses as follows:

Plusses: Intonation, feel, blow, and projection (and price $$$).
Minuses: Plays like a Strad (can you tell I just love Bach), tone, responsiveness...and MAYBE range (though you'd be better off to have a REAL lead player like Warren test that part out).

Hope that helps....

Whether you feel you can market it or not, it is an exceptional job and a very fine instrument. You should be proud.

PhatmonB6 · 04-27-2006, 03:55 AM

Just got the horn yesterday and ready to put it thru the test....I would like to have a couple other TM'ers try it out also and post a review while I have it in my posession.....One quick question for Greg...what is the copper wire wrapped around the main tuning slide for?? With the Pilchzk (sp.) leadpipe....what made you go with that particular one? Just a couple of questions from someone who has not even inserted a mpc. yet. Looking forward to playing it!!!

gzent · 04-27-2006, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhatmonB6

Just got the horn yesterday and ready to put it thru the test....I would like to have a couple other TM'ers try it out also and post a review while I have it in my posession.....One quick question for Greg...what is the copper wire wrapped around the main tuning slide for?? With the Pilchzk (sp.) leadpipe....what made you go with that particular one? Just a couple of questions from someone who has not even inserted a mpc. yet. Looking forward to playing it!!!

After I completed the first prototype, which is my everyday horn, I really liked how everything turned out, but found that the slotting was just too wide open for me. So, rather than revert back to a 'squared off' tuning slide, or one with conventional braces, or even adding other bracing, I experimented around with added more 'heft' to the curved slide I had. It was easy and a non-permanent fix.

What I discovered was that if I added weight to the curved slide it improved the slotting without significantly reducing the resonance or increasing the resistance / affecting the blow.

So far, wrapping the curved slide with copper wire and soldering it in place is the method I am able to use. Ideally, if we (my tech or myself) had a shop full of hydraulic equipment we could make a bent crook out of heavier brass, but, alas, we don't have such tools.

I think for this horn, and probably, many conventional horns, distributing the mass equally over a round/ovate crook is a better way to improve slotting versus a square slide or traditional post braces; yet it doesn't seem to negatively affect the resonance.

I selected the Pilczuk leadpipe R45X from 5 models, I believe, that Rich Ita sent for me to try out with the Olds Ambassador when I started designing the rebuilt horn. It is a rose brass and gives a nice mellow sound in the staff, but opens up when you need to scream above the staff.

Have fun trying it out. Be as honest as possible, but remember, this horn was designed to sell for $750, so don't expect miracles! :)

Thanks,

Greg

PhatmonB6 · 05-12-2006, 03:54 PM

This review coming from a comeback player who has been out of it for 20 some odd years...picked it back up 2 years ago. First of all the Strad stayed in its case while the Forza was in my possesion. My first impression was the look of the horn it is very prototype looking but the sound I got out of it was immaculate...I normally play a monette b2 but I used a Bach 7b with it..the sound was dark and buttery when playing Jazz standards I have a really mello sound in the low register and the high does not seem to be as shrill as with my bach.....my niece fell in love with the horn and I can really hear a difference between this horn and her Olds Ambassador.....I myself would highly recommend this modification for anyone looking for a "superhorn" at a reasonable price...I give this axe

The next person on the list will enjoy the horn for sure.....

gzent · 05-12-2006, 04:14 PM

Thanks for taking the time to give it a whirl, I appreciate it.

OK then, anyone else in Minnesota, Iowa or Wisconsin want to give it a test drive?

Greg

PhatmonB6 · 05-17-2006, 02:57 AM

Come on, Somebody out there must want to try this horn out....

gzent · 05-17-2006, 10:04 AM

bobtrumpet will be the next person on the list.

So the Forza will be spending some time in Texas!

bobtrumpet · 06-12-2006, 08:56 PM

First, I'd like to thank Greg for giving me, a lowly amateur who he doesn't know from Adam, the opportunity to try his Forza Trumpet.

Now for my comments, FWIW.

Mechanical

Nice finish if you like the raw brass, scratched finish (I usually don’t, but seeing one close up changed my opinion - it's well done). Overall fit ok. Slides seemed a little loose, probably not changed from the initial Ambassador base unit, but the seal was fine. The tuning slide would benefit from a bending jig as opposed to a hand bend, as the slide has a slight ovate look as opposed to being round (probably just a personal thing with me). The tuning slide mates well with Pilczuk leadpipe. I preferred the slide with the wire wrapped around it (extra weighting) as opposed to the plain slide, but the difference wasn’t that drastic (a sound post might give the same effect) - I actually played it more with the plain slide.

The only bracing is between the bell and the valve casing and leadpipe; I would be concerned that this would cause a problem with the valve slides bending over time. I think you could place the slide braces without adversely affecting the quality of the sound or the feel to the player - althought it would be labor intensive (read: cost more) to find the right spots on each horn.

Valves were fine, as to be expected from an Olds and some TLC.

Playing

More resistive than my Benge 6X LB (not many horns are less resistive). The Forza facilitated locking on the slots more than the Benge, but still allowed for some play around the pitch with the non-weighted slide (i.e., more so than a Strad).

The pitch was very even, and needed little if any 3rd/1st valve slide adjustment (I read on Rich Ita’s site for the Pilczuk pipes that this is a feature of the pipe).

The feel from behind the horn was that he sound was more focused out directly in front of the bell, as opposed to a wider wave front. I don’t know if this is a characteristic of the bell, or the fact that none of the slides are braced. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the chance to play it against my Benge with someone else listening out front.

The quality of the sound was very nice (at least with my playing, FWIW), as to be expected from an Olds horn. I took the horn to a concert band rehearsal and played it for the first half (about 50 minutes). It blended well with the other horns and seemed to be a more efficient blow for the time I played it. I had to back off overall when playing it, but once I adjusted I could still keep a nice sound at ff and still control it at pp.

Overall

With the few caveats as to the mechanical set up (which are easily resolved), this would be a fine horn for many situations. I’m not a high note guy so I cannot comment on it’s range over high C. But it blends ok with other horns and handles dynamic changes well. I especially like the intonation (and my Benge isn’t that bad re: intonation). And for the price, it would be a nice and easy compromise between buying numerous old horns on eBay looking for the right fit and spending 2X or more for a new horn.

Nice job, Greg!

Regards,

Bob Eye
Dallas, TX

gzent · 06-12-2006, 09:23 PM

Thanks for the thorough review Bob!

OK, anybody else in Texas care to give it a try?

Greg

PS - The tuning slides are made with a jig now. Either a semicircle or ovate as on the demo, are available.

gzent · 06-13-2006, 07:54 PM

OK, don't be shy, there must be someone in TX that wants to give the Forza the once over?

Anyone?

If not I believe Arkansas is the next stop...

Greg

03-02-2006, 12:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
rjzeller Forte User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 1,212	Forza review I had the good fortune of being able to give this trumpet a ride for a few weeks, and sent the following review to Greg thereafter. Since it appears he's going to send it on tour, I figured I'd start the review process by posting my original comments: *** I guess to start with -- mirroring your concerns, I don't know how marketable it would be, but it is a good product and would make a nice investment for someone who has very limit $$$ to spend. It basically performs as well as I would expect from a standard model Bach Strad, with a somewhat more open feel and better intonation. The valves are impressive for a horn that comes from such an old "chassis", as it were. What I liked: The intonation is simply outstanding. Just what I would expect from work performed by Mark. With a stock mouthpiece it was so-so, but with my Monette it locked right in. It's not quite as perfect as my C trumpet, but it's darned close. Feel -- this horn just FEELS good to play. Both in the weight and position on the hands, and the resistance/feel of the blow. I found I could really like this horn if I wasn't used to something as wide open as my Renaissance. Aside from the intonation, this is perhaps its strongest asset. A very comfortable horn. My only gripe is with the first slide saddle...I hate it. Too small for my fat fingers. Slotting -- You really can't miss here. Either you're playing down the center of the pitch or you're not. If you're not, you either didn't tune correctly or you need to use your slides. This is the one great fault of my Renaissance (or any wide open horn, for that matter) -- the slot points are so wide that you really have to concentrate to get the center of the note. This horn keeps you right there. Reminds me very much of the Getzen custom 3050 models. What I didn't like: Not much really. Perhaps the looks, but there's really not much you can do there. The brushed/scratched finish is very well done, though. If it werent' for the pings and few small dents, it'd be quite attractive. Perhaps a gold or silver finish would spiff it up, but then you're adding several hundred extra dollars to the price, which makes the whole project kinda pointless... Otherwise, the only two issues for me were the tone or sound quality, and the responsiveness. It's nicely focused, and at first I loved it. But I played it for a week solid then went back to my Getzen and the difference was significant. The sound here is more direct, more piercing, more lead-player sound. It's not a "bad" sound, and not even something that most people would likely notice. Just seems more suited to a Warren Bandel type sound than a Richard Zeller type sound. It's very consistent (hard to "color" the sound), but just doesn't mellow out enough for me. (Some people, though, thought it was quite a loud horn. So I think it really projects well.) As for the responsiveness, I like a horn to react quickly to what I want it to do. This horn has a way of imposing its will on you, and quick technical passages can be difficult. I'm not speaking about how quickly the valves react, as they are fine. I'm referring to how quickly the horn responds to what you're trying to do with it, and rapid changes in pitch or volume are met with resistance. This is REALLY personal preferrance since some people really need this type of resistance. For me, though, it is a hindrance. It reminds me very much of the '72 strad I used to play in many ways. Well..hope that helps. It really is very impressive for the price. If I wanted a second horn for outdoor gigs or pep band or whatever, I'd seriously consider it. Like I said, I'd put it right on par with the Bach Strads (more of a 43 bell feel than a 37, though, IMHO). Considering the price, I'd take that over the Phaeton, but I'd still rather have my Renaissance. My only other thing is the range -- I didn't want to bully it like I do with pep band and jazz band, so I set the lead piece aside and grabbed my B4. I then played my Getzen from high C through G. C-D-E-F-G. A bit squirelly on the G but otherwise fairly easy and open. Then I tried the Forza and it shut off completely for me at E and F (usually E gives me fits on all horns, but the F almost never). It spoke again around G, but not being able to play the E would be a killer. I tried it with my lead piece and still had the same problem. Shut off completely at E and F. I'm not a bonafide lead player like Warren, so I'm sure our appraoches are different. It may do well for him, but I would never be able to use it for lead work. Micah also noted that it seemed more resistive than the Forza you're actually playing on yourself, so perhaps that may explain a bit. But I just thought I'd pop that in there. anyway...great horn. PLusses and minuses as follows: Plusses: Intonation, feel, blow, and projection (and price $$$). Minuses: Plays like a Strad (can you tell I just love Bach), tone, responsiveness...and MAYBE range (though you'd be better off to have a REAL lead player like Warren test that part out). Hope that helps.... Whether you feel you can market it or not, it is an exceptional job and a very fine instrument. You should be proud. __________________ There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who do not.

04-27-2006, 03:55 AM	#2 (permalink)
PhatmonB6 Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 668	Just got the horn yesterday and ready to put it thru the test....I would like to have a couple other TM'ers try it out also and post a review while I have it in my posession.....One quick question for Greg...what is the copper wire wrapped around the main tuning slide for?? With the Pilchzk (sp.) leadpipe....what made you go with that particular one? Just a couple of questions from someone who has not even inserted a mpc. yet. Looking forward to playing it!!! __________________ Bach Strad 180S37 Monette B2 Well, if I could play like Wynton (Marsalis), I wouldn't play like Wynton. Chet Baker

05-12-2006, 03:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
PhatmonB6 Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 668	This review coming from a comeback player who has been out of it for 20 some odd years...picked it back up 2 years ago. First of all the Strad stayed in its case while the Forza was in my possesion. My first impression was the look of the horn it is very prototype looking but the sound I got out of it was immaculate...I normally play a monette b2 but I used a Bach 7b with it..the sound was dark and buttery when playing Jazz standards I have a really mello sound in the low register and the high does not seem to be as shrill as with my bach.....my niece fell in love with the horn and I can really hear a difference between this horn and her Olds Ambassador.....I myself would highly recommend this modification for anyone looking for a "superhorn" at a reasonable price...I give this axe The next person on the list will enjoy the horn for sure..... __________________ Bach Strad 180S37 Monette B2 Well, if I could play like Wynton (Marsalis), I wouldn't play like Wynton. Chet Baker

05-12-2006, 04:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
gzent Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 1,515	Thanks for taking the time to give it a whirl, I appreciate it. OK then, anyone else in Minnesota, Iowa or Wisconsin want to give it a test drive? Greg __________________ Harmony and understanding Sympathy and trust abounding No more falsehoods or derisions Golden living dreams of visions Mystic crystal revalation And the mind's true liberation

05-17-2006, 02:57 AM	#6 (permalink)
PhatmonB6 Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 668	Come on, Somebody out there must want to try this horn out.... __________________ Bach Strad 180S37 Monette B2 Well, if I could play like Wynton (Marsalis), I wouldn't play like Wynton. Chet Baker

05-17-2006, 10:04 AM	#7 (permalink)
gzent Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 1,515	bobtrumpet will be the next person on the list. So the Forza will be spending some time in Texas! __________________ Harmony and understanding Sympathy and trust abounding No more falsehoods or derisions Golden living dreams of visions Mystic crystal revalation And the mind's true liberation

06-12-2006, 08:56 PM	#8 (permalink)
bobtrumpet New Friend Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 15	First, I'd like to thank Greg for giving me, a lowly amateur who he doesn't know from Adam, the opportunity to try his Forza Trumpet. Now for my comments, FWIW. Mechanical Nice finish if you like the raw brass, scratched finish (I usually don’t, but seeing one close up changed my opinion - it's well done). Overall fit ok. Slides seemed a little loose, probably not changed from the initial Ambassador base unit, but the seal was fine. The tuning slide would benefit from a bending jig as opposed to a hand bend, as the slide has a slight ovate look as opposed to being round (probably just a personal thing with me). The tuning slide mates well with Pilczuk leadpipe. I preferred the slide with the wire wrapped around it (extra weighting) as opposed to the plain slide, but the difference wasn’t that drastic (a sound post might give the same effect) - I actually played it more with the plain slide. The only bracing is between the bell and the valve casing and leadpipe; I would be concerned that this would cause a problem with the valve slides bending over time. I think you could place the slide braces without adversely affecting the quality of the sound or the feel to the player - althought it would be labor intensive (read: cost more) to find the right spots on each horn. Valves were fine, as to be expected from an Olds and some TLC. Playing More resistive than my Benge 6X LB (not many horns are less resistive). The Forza facilitated locking on the slots more than the Benge, but still allowed for some play around the pitch with the non-weighted slide (i.e., more so than a Strad). The pitch was very even, and needed little if any 3rd/1st valve slide adjustment (I read on Rich Ita’s site for the Pilczuk pipes that this is a feature of the pipe). The feel from behind the horn was that he sound was more focused out directly in front of the bell, as opposed to a wider wave front. I don’t know if this is a characteristic of the bell, or the fact that none of the slides are braced. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the chance to play it against my Benge with someone else listening out front. The quality of the sound was very nice (at least with my playing, FWIW), as to be expected from an Olds horn. I took the horn to a concert band rehearsal and played it for the first half (about 50 minutes). It blended well with the other horns and seemed to be a more efficient blow for the time I played it. I had to back off overall when playing it, but once I adjusted I could still keep a nice sound at ff and still control it at pp. Overall With the few caveats as to the mechanical set up (which are easily resolved), this would be a fine horn for many situations. I’m not a high note guy so I cannot comment on it’s range over high C. But it blends ok with other horns and handles dynamic changes well. I especially like the intonation (and my Benge isn’t that bad re: intonation). And for the price, it would be a nice and easy compromise between buying numerous old horns on eBay looking for the right fit and spending 2X or more for a new horn. Nice job, Greg! Regards, Bob Eye Dallas, TX

06-12-2006, 09:23 PM	#9 (permalink)
gzent Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 1,515	Thanks for the thorough review Bob! OK, anybody else in Texas care to give it a try? Greg PS - The tuning slides are made with a jig now. Either a semicircle or ovate as on the demo, are available. __________________ Harmony and understanding Sympathy and trust abounding No more falsehoods or derisions Golden living dreams of visions Mystic crystal revalation And the mind's true liberation

06-13-2006, 07:54 PM	#10 (permalink)
gzent Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 1,515	OK, don't be shy, there must be someone in TX that wants to give the Forza the once over? Anyone? If not I believe Arkansas is the next stop... Greg __________________ Harmony and understanding Sympathy and trust abounding No more falsehoods or derisions Golden living dreams of visions Mystic crystal revalation And the mind's true liberation

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