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Horns Discuss Kanstul and Martin Committee in the Equipment forums; Just noticed that the Kanstul site shows a new horn that appears to be the Kanstul approximation/interpretation to the Martin ...
  1. #1
    Fortissimo User SteveRicks's Avatar
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    Kanstul and Martin Committee

    Just noticed that the Kanstul site shows a new horn that appears to be the Kanstul approximation/interpretation to the Martin Committee. Anyone tried one? Sure wish the company would consider doing such for the Olds Super and Recording.


    While I think it is possible to closely reproduce an older horn with a new version, I often wonder about the metal. While it may be in my head, I know my Olds Super has a certain feel to the metal unlike the metal in any of my Kanstuls. Had the Kanstul connstellation clone. Very similar, but the metal felt different. Probably all in my head. No slight to Kanstul. They make great horns.
    Steve
    Olds Supers, LA (1953), Ful. (1962)
    Olds Recording, LA (1952)
    Olds Studio, LA (1953)
    Olds Special, Ful. (1964)
    Olds Ambassador, LA (1954)
    Olds Ambassador, Ful. (1973)
    Bach Strads 37-(1967, 1970, 1974, 1982)
    Bach Strad 72 MLV (1973), 72* (1982)
    Kanstul 1500 (2002), 1502 (2008), 1503 (2002)
    Kanstul 1537 (2007)
    Kanstul Chicago (2000)
    Kanstul 1510 C
    King Liberty (1929,1929)
    King Liberty 2 (1938, 1944)
    King Liberty 2b (1950)
    J.H. Darby 45 USA
    Holton (Revelation) 1924
    Kanstul 1525 Flugelhorn

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    Utimate User tobylou8's Avatar
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    Re: Kanstul and Martin Committee

    There's only one original. It may be a great imitation and worth the expense. But I have the originals, so... .
    Knowledge is freedom, and ignorance is slavery - Miles Davis

    The difference between a beginner and pro mouthpiece is practice - tobylou8

    Nobody has learned how to play the trumpet. It's endless. - Maynard Ferguson

    Don't be afraid to try something different. The Ark was built by an amateur and the Titanic was built by a group of experienced engineers.

    By the inch it's a cinch, by the yard, it's hard!

  3. #3
    Fortissimo User SteveRicks's Avatar
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    Re: Kanstul and Martin Committee

    I hear you. But for those that aren't as lucky, I am wondering how the new clones compare. There are only only so many of the originals, so you are fortunate.
    Steve
    Olds Supers, LA (1953), Ful. (1962)
    Olds Recording, LA (1952)
    Olds Studio, LA (1953)
    Olds Special, Ful. (1964)
    Olds Ambassador, LA (1954)
    Olds Ambassador, Ful. (1973)
    Bach Strads 37-(1967, 1970, 1974, 1982)
    Bach Strad 72 MLV (1973), 72* (1982)
    Kanstul 1500 (2002), 1502 (2008), 1503 (2002)
    Kanstul 1537 (2007)
    Kanstul Chicago (2000)
    Kanstul 1510 C
    King Liberty (1929,1929)
    King Liberty 2 (1938, 1944)
    King Liberty 2b (1950)
    J.H. Darby 45 USA
    Holton (Revelation) 1924
    Kanstul 1525 Flugelhorn

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    Fortissimo User bumblebee's Avatar
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    Re: Kanstul and Martin Committee

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveRicks View Post
    Just noticed that the Kanstul site shows a new horn that appears to be the Kanstul improvement to the Martin Committee. Anyone tried one? Sure wish the company would consider doing such for the Olds Super and Recording.


    While I think it is possible to closely reproduce an older horn with a new version, I often wonder about the metal. While it may be in my head, I know my Olds Super has a certain feel to the metal unlike the metal in any of my Kanstuls. Had the Kanstul connstellation clone. Very similar, but the metal felt different. Probably all in my head. No slight to Kanstul. They make great horns.
    Improvement? Do you want to go back and fix that? I might suggest "emulation", "approximation", "mimic" or perhaps "copy".


    --bumblebee

  5. #5
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    Re: Kanstul and Martin Committee

    I think you are absolutely correct Steve, and I can see the respect that you have for Kanstul and what they have achieved.

    To elaborate a little on the difficulty of the task Kanstul have taken on, from the perspective of business and engineering, both of which I am familiar with:-

    The composition of the metal is of course important and varying the mix will affect the tone. Exactly to what degree remains uncertain. We should be aware however that it cuts both ways and that quite by chance a copy in the new brass mix available to Kanstul might conceivably out perform tonally the original it is a replica of (if replica is the correct term for an updated version of the original).

    Looking at Kanstul as a business, and business process is my profession, they will as part of their operation have to source a ready supply of high quality brass, and this has nothing to do with the brass mix the original manufacturer be it Conn or Reynolds or whoever, was able to source. Although it is likely to be a very close approximation.

    A business like Kanstul simply could not function and remain competitive if they had to copy not only the build of the horn but its brass mix too for every manufacturer whose horn they replicate.

    Therefore all of their instruments will I am sure use the exact same brass mix. There just is no other choice period.

    I have nothing but respect for Kanstul as a business and as a concept. It is just an operational fact we must be aware of and cut them some slack on this.

    Some original brass mixes I am sure will be totally unobtainable in the market place or might be available "at a premium" and this would I suspect drive the cost of the horn into the unaffordable bracket if they tried to source an exactly correct brass mix. But of course that mix would only be correct for one original manufacturer

    The further we go back in history the less certain we can be about the mixes of brasses.

    Looking at Brass compared to Bronze in statuary, Brass is a mixture of Copper and Zinc, whereas Bronze is a mixture of Copper and Tin we all know this. however less known is that artists and metallurgists were often somewhat less precise with their mixtures in antiquity. Ancient Bronzes have been found to sometimes in fact be made of Brass or a hybrid mix of metals including Copper Zinc Tin and are not really Bronze at all.

    Brass for musical Instruments often was a mix of not only of Copper and Zinc but of other metals too. There were red brasses and yellow brasses and silver brasses with different concentrations of Copper Zinc Nickel and other metals.

    All in all its a nightmare for a company like Kanstul, and I am to be honest very impressed that they took on this difficult task and at their success at replicating these remarkable horns as well as they do.

    Just my 2 cents
    ConnDirectorFan likes this.
    If you can play Jazz you can Razzamatazz, But if you can play sweet you can always eat.

    Conn 80A Cornet May 1952
    Boosey and Hawkes Emperor Trumpet September 1955
    Selmer Student Trumpet September 1943
    Comet Pea shooter Trumpet Unknown build date probably 1950

  6. #6
    Fortissimo User SteveRicks's Avatar
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    Re: Kanstul and Martin Committee

    Quote Originally Posted by bumblebee View Post
    Improvement? Do you want to go back and fix that? I might suggest "emulation", "approximation", "mimic" or perhaps "copy".


    --bumblebee
    Sure. How about approximation? No insult to the Committee intended. Not real sure of the proper word. Other examples. I know that Kanstul bought out Benge when Benge passed away. He had also worked at Benge and now makes the Chicago 1000 which is supposed to be almost identical to the original Chicago Benges (probably on the original Benge mandrels- but don't know for sure). He also made a few tweaks such as improving intonation - like the classic flat D on the originals. I own a Kanstul Chicago and today played next to a guy at swing band rehearsal who owns an original Benge Chicago. We spent time at the break with several other trumpet players comparing the two.
    The Kanstul won. Kanstul also did similar with the Connstellation. Now, I see he has a Committee approximation. Would love to hear a review by someone who has played both.
    Steve
    Olds Supers, LA (1953), Ful. (1962)
    Olds Recording, LA (1952)
    Olds Studio, LA (1953)
    Olds Special, Ful. (1964)
    Olds Ambassador, LA (1954)
    Olds Ambassador, Ful. (1973)
    Bach Strads 37-(1967, 1970, 1974, 1982)
    Bach Strad 72 MLV (1973), 72* (1982)
    Kanstul 1500 (2002), 1502 (2008), 1503 (2002)
    Kanstul 1537 (2007)
    Kanstul Chicago (2000)
    Kanstul 1510 C
    King Liberty (1929,1929)
    King Liberty 2 (1938, 1944)
    King Liberty 2b (1950)
    J.H. Darby 45 USA
    Holton (Revelation) 1924
    Kanstul 1525 Flugelhorn

  7. #7
    Fortissimo User SteveRicks's Avatar
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    Re: Kanstul and Martin Committee

    Good point. It is possible that the metal of today is better tonality wise. In fact, during the war era there is no telling what was going on with the metals they had available. Obviously, there is no way for a business to take such into account. However, I believe the Kanstul group has done a pretty good job with their approximations/similar builds of classic horns. It is nice that such was undertaken by a quality shop instead of some of the foreign junk producers that also make horns.
    Steve
    Olds Supers, LA (1953), Ful. (1962)
    Olds Recording, LA (1952)
    Olds Studio, LA (1953)
    Olds Special, Ful. (1964)
    Olds Ambassador, LA (1954)
    Olds Ambassador, Ful. (1973)
    Bach Strads 37-(1967, 1970, 1974, 1982)
    Bach Strad 72 MLV (1973), 72* (1982)
    Kanstul 1500 (2002), 1502 (2008), 1503 (2002)
    Kanstul 1537 (2007)
    Kanstul Chicago (2000)
    Kanstul 1510 C
    King Liberty (1929,1929)
    King Liberty 2 (1938, 1944)
    King Liberty 2b (1950)
    J.H. Darby 45 USA
    Holton (Revelation) 1924
    Kanstul 1525 Flugelhorn

  8. #8
    Utimate User tobylou8's Avatar
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    Re: Kanstul and Martin Committee

    Well, I'll see how much they want for it. I'm notoriously cheap, so it would have to be at some type of meet.
    Knowledge is freedom, and ignorance is slavery - Miles Davis

    The difference between a beginner and pro mouthpiece is practice - tobylou8

    Nobody has learned how to play the trumpet. It's endless. - Maynard Ferguson

    Don't be afraid to try something different. The Ark was built by an amateur and the Titanic was built by a group of experienced engineers.

    By the inch it's a cinch, by the yard, it's hard!

  9. #9
    Utimate User tobylou8's Avatar
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    Re: Kanstul and Martin Committee

    I really have to think about what needs "improvement" on a Committee. The only constant complaint I've heard over the years is the "loose" slotting. If that is "fixed" it won't be a Committee from a jazz players perspective. Are there any other issues y'all may have heard about over the years? I really cannot think of any.
    Knowledge is freedom, and ignorance is slavery - Miles Davis

    The difference between a beginner and pro mouthpiece is practice - tobylou8

    Nobody has learned how to play the trumpet. It's endless. - Maynard Ferguson

    Don't be afraid to try something different. The Ark was built by an amateur and the Titanic was built by a group of experienced engineers.

    By the inch it's a cinch, by the yard, it's hard!

  10. #10
    Forte User flugelgirl's Avatar
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    Re: Kanstul and Martin Committee

    The closest clones I have played were one of Josh Landress's custom horns, and the Adams A9. I played them back to back with the real thing. I didn't buy any of them, although I could have. Just because someone says they are the "Holy Grail", does not mean they will be for you. Play before you pay, or at least make sure you have a return policy.
    Adams A1, satin gold lacquer, 0.55 (and it's twin in clear lacquer)
    Adams F2, gold brass bell 0.55
    Puje 3am
    Adams ACB Prologue
    Conn 112B
    NY Bach Mercury
    50's Calicchio
    Marcienkewicz Rembrandt flugel (for sale! Contact Trent Austin for details)
    Schilke P5-4
    Schilke C5L
    French Besson Classic C
    Yamaha 761 Eb/D
    Weril Regium Eb/D (for sale soon)
    vintage Benge pocket trumpet
    Austin Custom Brass mouthpieces

    More news to come!

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