rhdroc

I realize that it's been discussed, to some extent, before but it's still not clear to me --- what are the differences between the ZKF 1525, the CHF 1025, and the CCF 925 when fitted with copper bells? Obviously they're priced differently, have different bores, and at least one of them has bottom-sprung valves. I'm more interested in their individual playing characteristics...

Without having the opportunity to play each one, maybe someone who has played all three can comment...

How do they differ in sound quality??

Is there a difference in their ease of playing?? Their blow??

Do their leadpipe tapers differ?? (Standard, French, etc.) Do they require specific flugel mouthpieces due to the tapers??

Is there a significant difference in built quality as reflected by their pricing??

Does the finish effect any of the models more then the others??

I know this sort of question is difficult and is very subjective but if someone could shed some light on these differences (the more specific, the better), I'd really appreciate it?? It's unlikely I'd ever have the opportunity to play test all three flugels.

Thanks---<Rick

drac

Rick,

I can at least help you out a little bit here. I recently tried the ZKT 1525 and the Custom CCF 925 both with copper bells. The playing differences between the two are huge. The custom has a very classic flugel sound. The bore is .415 which is similar to Bach and other manufacturers. The tone on this horn is great and can have a slight edge on it if you push it which is nice. I think being able to color to notes on a fugel is very important. The intonation is good. The upper register is a bit on the tight side but tone quality is clear. Slotting was a bit difficult for me because of the small bore but it is something you get used to. Overall the custom flugel is great and for the price it's hard to find better.

As for the Signature model, the way it blows is completely different. It is much more open. The horn blows freely in all registers and the intonation is superb. I think it is better in tune than my trumpet which says a lot for a flugel! The sound quality is much darker and richer than the Custom and my first impression is that it projects much more. It seems like a much louder instrument when using the same air as the custom. The sound never gets bright though. It stays dark and warm. This might be a result of the huge 6 1/2 inch bell compared to he 6 inch bell of the custom. All registers play equally well and it has a bigger dynamic range.

The both have third slide triggers and the custom requires a special mouthpiece shank. They both tune from the leadpipe and have three water keys.

I would definitely reccomend trying them because they are so different. I was able to get a trial through Pick Music so you may want to give it a whirl. I know they have a Chicago copper flugel on hand too which is supposedly a much brighter horn by comparison. I ultimately ended up with the ZKT 1525 and I couldn't be happier. It was an awfully tough choice though!!! Good luck in your search......

Jon

JACKKANSTUL

The above post is well stated. The differences are huge. The Custom Class probably plays better than most manufactures best efforts. However the Signature is a whole new level, therefore worth more. It is not easy to make a brasswind instrument let alone that incredible. One that, as the above statement mentions, is BETTER THAN A TRUMPET. That's saying something, when you consider the flugel is more conical than a trumpet and the more conical this TAPERED TUBE gets the more difficult it is to make right. That's also saying what an artist/craftsman like my father knows. He obviously knows something more than others do or they could do the same thing. One company has already tried to copy the Kanstul flugel and hasn't succeded. That's because you have to know how to do it. You can't really copy it exactly. The smallest changes make huge differences. That also lets you know my father does not give his best efforts out to some other company. He reserves that exclusively to his own personal SIGNATURE horns. So if you want the best with the backing that only family can give you, give me a call. Because when it comes to KANSTUL, nobody does it better. hmmm sounds like a good line for a song.

To The Signature flugel and Kanstul Music-Why look anywhere else?

Jack Kanstul

trickg

I own the CCF 925 and the description that drac gave for it is VERY accurate. I had the money to buy either one, but considering that I only use flugel as a doubling instrument on the occasional ballad, I just couldn't justify the added expense of the more expensive flugel, especially when the CCF 925 plays so danged well.

I tried a couple of the Chicago models and for me, they just didn't fit the bill. The intonation for me wasn't quite as good and for me, the blow didn't compare to that of the 925.

Unfortunately, to date, I have yet to play a Signature flugel. Had I had more time and really wanted to try one, Pricilla had one available, but at that point, I had already made up my mind that of the flugels that I did try, the CCF 925 was going to be everything I needed and more.

The Kanstul flugelhorns are among the cream of the crop of flugels as far as I'm concerned and should be strongly considered if you are in the market for a new flugel.

trickg

I thought that I would drop in the text of my Trumpet Herald post that I made after acquiring the CCF 925. Interestingly enough, I made a comment about not being able to afford the ZKF 1525. That wasn't really the case. I could have bought the more expensive flugel, but my idea of what I can afford and my wife's idea of what I can afford are two completely different things. If I had spent the extra money, mama wouldn't have been happy "and if mama ain't happy, ain't NO ONE happy!"

Anyway, here is the text of my post regarding that purchase.

One last comment that I would like to make is that not long ago I pulled out that Yamaha 631 flugel (I'm still in the National Guard band and I just haven't turned it back in yet.) and play tested it against the CCF 925 again. NO comparisson. At this point, probably because I'm used to playing it, the Kanstul is WAY better than the Yamaha 631 for me. The sound is better and the intonation seems to be a bit more sure.

I hope this helps.

rhdroc

Thanks to all those who have replied to my questions thus far Now I have another question that just came up.

I realize that the copper bell is softer than the brass bell. I've heard that it's so soft that it's almost like an "accident waiting to happen." Is the copper bell really that delicate?? Normally I've very careful with my horns but if the copper bell is actually that "super soft," I'm beginning to wonder how practical it is.

---<Rick

drac

Well, the ZKT 1525 is a heavy wall copper bell and seems sturdy to me. They may dent a little easier than brass much not by a whole lot. I think a light weight bell is way more prone to "accidents". Perhaps someone who has had one of these copper bell models for a longer period of time can chime in......

Jon

camelbrass

Hi,

I've got a ZKF 1525 and the copper bell isn't a problem. Is it soft? Yes but I haven't dented mine any more or any worse than any other horn I own and it's out on its stand at practice/gigs and around the house a lot.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Trevor

JACKKANSTUL

Copper is softer but my father knows a thing or two about working the metal. If you look at a Kanstul copper bell and compare it to the competition who have tried to copy my fathers designs(you can't copy a tapered tube or the metal, not exactly, you have to know how to do it) you will see that their COPPER looks like TIN next to the Kanstul. The hardness on the Kanstul copper is much better.

TO THE CRAFTSMANSHIP-NOBODY DOES IT LIKE KANSTUL.

Jack Kanstul

music matters

I asked exactly the same question a month or so ago under Copper belled flugels, but dracs answer in this thread gets to the point best by describing the differences in how they play. Thanks drac!

I am going to test some flugels in a couple of weeks and hope to compare the CC with the signature so will post my findings when I do, but I will probably have nothing to add to dracs post. Are you looking to buy one soon or were you just curious about the differences? If you are looking to buy one what other models are you considering?

MM