Shermy

I'm in the market for a new trumpet more suited for jazz than my current set up (silver Bach 37 lightweight). From my research and budget (less than $2,000), I've narrowed it down to either the Kanstul WB1600 or TW1601. Am I being too narrow minded?

I've tried a friend's Kanstul Chicago model a while back and was amazed at the build quality and intonation. The valves were great too, I might add (see my other post). Almost everything I've read and heard says Kanstul makes great horns regardless of if it's a Kanstul or made for someone else. From my very limited experience I would have to concur. I am really interested in the TW1601 from my conversations with Clayton Frounfelker at Hi Horns in Wisconsin. It seems to fit the bill for someone wanting a versatile trumpet that will mainly be used for jazz combo settings or big band settings playing other than the lead book. He also suggested getting both a single (standard) and double radius (optional) tuning slide, the latter of which allows you to blend well in a symphonic setting. I can't wait to go up to his shop and give it and the WB1600 (as well as some of the 1500 models) a test run.

My current set up gets me around OK, but I'm really looking for something more tailored to jazz. Also, it seems to "pinch off" (not sure how else to describe it) when I go above a high C, making it difficult (not impossible) to play in the upper register. Clayton tells me I'm in for quite a different sound and feel. Would anyone else who's played the TW1601 and has also played a Bach 37 (or similar horn) concur or have any other words of wisdom they can share?

Thanks,
Shermy

Magnusverdixon

I have the WB 1600 and love it ... great horn.

KJaeger

Shermy:

I have a Bach 37 which was my only horn for 20-some years. A couple years ago I looked at the various Kanstuls for a very similar reason as you are - the Bach really "shut down" above high C (though Charlie Melk is fixing that for me right now), and I wanted something that I could "let my hair down" with a bit and that was more responsive. I played the 1500, 1500A and 1600 along with a couple other horns (including the Conn V1), and the 1600 just seemed perfect for what I wanted it for. It was much freer blowing than the Bach, especially in the upper register - for the first time I felt really confident above high C.

What I like about the 1600 is that it is not "laser-like" in tone quality, even going up high - it has a more broad or "phat" sound. I think it is a perfect jazz or solo horn.

I will say that in my experience my 1600 is a bit sensitive to mouthpiece selection if I am playing it in more of a "legit" setting, like orchestra or wind band. I have finally found some Karl Hammond mouthpieces that help make the horn more versatile for me for that type of music - before that, I really struggled being able to project without my tone getting too "jazzy" or breaking up too quickly.

I have not played a 1601, but you certainly might like the 1600 considering your description of the type of playing you do. I would definitely try both side-by-side if you get the chance.

JazzyKendall

Hey Shermy, I'm not sure if you've gotten a new horn yet. But I was oddly enough in the market for a new horn, after playing a bach strad 37. My friend plays a Kanstul 1500a and sounds amazing on it, he's a lead player. My teacher also plays a 1500a, also a lead player. I on the other hand play the solo book in big band and i'm in a combo at my university. Anyways I went up to Chuck Levins (big music store in my area) and I told the guy to pull out all the Kanstuls he had I played pretty much the entire range of models. The two I narrowed it down to were the 1500 and the 1601 (both laquer finishes) and I just absolutely loved the 1601, it was a more open blow than my strad (which I also had next to me to compare sound and playability) My horn really opens up when I put some air into it but I have a lot of control with the sound when soloing. I think one of the best things about this particular model is the Lightweight Copper bell, it lets you still get a darker sound but hang with everyone in a big band section. I've only gotten great comments on my sound on the horn. My improv professor said that the horn just seems to work with the way I play. Anyways I would highly recommend the horn. But make sure you try one out before you buy, oh and I dont' know if its just me and my friends but the silver plated Kanstuls feel really really stuffy compared to the laquer finished ones. Just some food for thought. Best of luck with your horn search.

Shermy

Hi All,

Wow, it's been five months since I started this venture! Well, after a lot of contemplating, a few experiences playing some Kanstuls - the Chicago and a 1500 - haven't been able to get up to Hi Horns, I've decided to take the plunge. I will be ordering the Kanstul ZKT1601 later today from Hi Horns. Unfortunately, Clayton is in the process of moving (he operates Hi Horns out of his home) so he won't be able to deliver until the end of this month. I got in touch with him yesterday and he let me know that he has the very horn I want in stock and ready to ship when his move is complete. Here is what I will soon be in posession of:

Kanstul ZKT1601 in lacquer with traditional water keys as opposed to stock amado water keys and both a single radius and double radius tuning slide.

Here's the thought process I've been going through over the last several months.

Q: Do I NEED a new trumpet?
A: No - at least not necessarily. My current set up has served me well for the past 20+ years. Sure, it's looking pretty old, has had two overhauls including replating, replacement of water keys, finger hooks and rings, has quite a few dings on the light weight bell, etc. But it sounds great, with a few limitations. Those limitations being a ceiling in its practical range at around high C, it slots too well for jazz - my preferred and most practiced and performed musical idiom, and the tone isn't as easily colored as I would like, i.e. bending notes, changing tone color.

Q: If I were to get a new trumpet, what would I want it to do?
A: Basically, I would want it to overcome all the shortcomings I list above. Most importantly, I would want a jazz horn - I don't plan on selling my Strad. By jazz, I mean solo book in big band, and combo work. I don't play lead and don't really aspire to, but would like to be able to play those notes with ease if the need arises - afterall, the second book (a.k.a. solo book) often times goes up into that register too. I would also like a horn that is easy to color. In addition, not mentioned above, I would like a horn that has more consistent intonation throughout its range. Lastly, though I plan on keeping my Strad, I would like a horn that I can make a quick modification to (change to the double radius tuning slide) and be able to fit nicely in a symphonic setting.

Q: Why the Kanstul ZKT1601?
A: First of all, it overcomes all the shortcomings listed above. Secondly, though the price is a tiny bit higher than the mass produced "professional" horns, I feel the quality that I've seen thus far of the Kanstul line and the reputation of service I've seen and heard of with Kanstul horns more than justifies the extra cost. Also, it is actually less expensive than the higher end horns with close to the same attention to detail. Though I would love to own an Eclipse, Taylor, or other horn in that category, for the limited amount of times I will be able to play, the difference in price simply can't be justified. So, after talking with Clayton, perusing this forum, talking with others that own this horn, playing a few other Kanstuls, and finally getting permission from my CFO - a.k.a. the wife - I have come to the conclusion that the 1601 is THE horn. Also of note, Clayton has a 7 day audition period, so if I decide I don't like it, I'm only out the cost of shipping.

Shermy

I got word from Clayton that my horns will be here TODAY!!! WOOHOO!!! SQUEEE!! WHOOT WHOOT!!

Yes I said horns. I added the ZKF 1525 to the order.

I'm so giddy, it feels like Christmas Eve when I was 10 years old!! I've been dreaming of having a jazz horn since I was an undergrad (1987). It's great to finally be able to afford them, but having a regular job really puts a damper on being able to practice and perform. Such is life...

Pictures to come!!

TisEkard

I have the WB1600, and I LOVE IT! everyone that trys it, loves it. It plays so well, and is a great all around horn. If you mainly play in the orchestra, I would not get it because it tends to be a little bright for that setting, but if you are using it for jazz or the pit, its great. Mine has the brushed laquer and for the past 7 years, I have been very happy with it.

bilboinsa

WOW! The 1601 and the 1525 together. That is a combo I have dreamed about a lot. You will have one fine looking Hercules, my friend!

Have fun!

Shermy

I am floored with how well these horns look together!! Heck, I'm floored with how beautiful they are on their own. Looks is actually only a very small reason for my purchase. I really wanted a new trumpet that suited the type of music I like to play - Combo or 2nd book big band Jazz - and also be able to blend well in a legit setting if the need arises. So, I guess here goes my first impressions and to let you know if it lives up to what I want it to. I'll keep this to the trumpet.

Visually it is beautiful, right down to the little brass colored seam running down the length of the bell. The lacquer finish is impeccable. The valves, right out of the box, were butter smooth and lightning quick. The compression on the valve slides was much more than my Bach 37* but not a lot. The 1st and 3rd slides moved quite freely, again, right out of the box. One plus, that I really didn't notice before purchasing, is the brass action rods (the rods that connect the finger buttons to the valves). I believe All stock Bach, Shilke and Yamaha action rods are aluminum, which (from first hand experience) corrode after time. All connections (anywhere where anything had to be soldered together) were meticulously done. It also feels a few ounces lighter than my Bach 37*.

It was shipped with the double radius slide in the horn. Since it was there, and I already warmed up on my Bach 37, I figured what the heck. Later discovered this tuning slide is not stamped with the last two digits of the serial number like all the others, however, it fits just as tightly as the stock (single radius) slide. I put my mouthpiece (Curry 2BC) into the receiver, which is stamped with 1601. The mouthpiece went in a few millimeters deeper than in my Bach. It also doesn't fit quite as snuggly as in my Bach. It isn't lose mind you - probably because there isn't enough corrosion for it to stick to...

I started on an open space G. The sound right away was different than the Bach. I could hear a rich spectrum of tone from bright to dark - true brilliance. This is (from first impressions behind the bell) dang close to what I was looking for. I hope it sounds the same out front. My Bach sound is almost the same, I think the difference is more of the bright sound and a little less of the dark sound. The response is AMAZING. You can really 'ping' on this horn - sound is almost instantanious. I then did some simple lip flexibilities up to C, then E, down to C, G then low C checking on slotting and intonation. This horn connects! I tried the same on the rest of the open notes up to high C up and down at various speeds. I'm not sure if it's because my 37 is old and leaky, but I was expecting at least one clam. Nothing happening! You can find the center on this horn so easily. Next, since I was already warm, I played the first few phrases of Charlier 1, again checking for slotting, intonation, valves, and also response - WOW, WOW, WOW, and WOW!! Man, what I've been missing (or what I didn't miss - note wise). I never thought a piece of equipment would make this much difference.

Next, I pulled out the double radius slide and put in the single radius slide. I was expecting it to be radically different - so much that the clams would start showing up and the slotting would be all over the place. Not true at all. It gave me just the right amount of 'lose' slotting, a little less resistance, but retained all the center. I played some of the same stuff to try to make it crack, well of course it can, but when you're trying to, how real of a simulation is that? I decided to again play Charlier 1 to see if I could make it through the first 3rd with out fracking, and to my own 'comeback player' chop's amazement, I did just that. The whole time I'm thinking how can I play this much more accurately than a horn I've played for the past 25 years on a horn I only started playing minutes ago?!?!

Finally, I put it through the paces for its intended purpose. I started playing some improvised licks over the changes to "A Night In Tunisa". On my Bach, I would hear stuff in my head and about 90% of the time it would come out of the horn, the rest of the time, it would be a missed partial, or something else. On this horn, again, a lot of that was eliminated. It's a dream come true - at least on my limited exposure to date. I still need to play it in a section.

I've played it for about 4 or 5 hours since it came early Thursday evening. Every time I bring it to my face is a joy. I love the sound, I love the accuracy, and the looks are a big plus!

I'm meeting up with a pro in the area tomorrow to let him look it over and listen to me play. I'll chime back with his impressions.

Thanks and Cheers!
Shermy

Shermy

On to the ZKT 1525 Fluegel horn. This will be brief. I didn't play it nearly as much as the trumpet, and I don't have a good fluegel to compare it to -Blessing artist with some doggy intonation.

Again, as with its lighter brother, it is beautiful in fit and finish. Unlike its brother, the lead pipe and slides are made with nickel silver. When side by side, it isn't all that noticeable. I love the huge brace that connects the 3rd slide to the bottom of the bell crook - for lack of not knowing what it is really called. The gold brass connectors and the like really add nice accents to its looks! My mouthpiece (Curry 2FL) fits a few millimeters shorter than in my Blessing. The valves, like its brother's, are butter smooth and lightning fast. The 3rd slide trigger works nicely as well. My 1525 has standard water keys (as does its brother), and it, in my opinion, makes the horn appear a bit more substantial than the stock horn in pictures - maybe it's just because I'm holding it in my hands. I got standard water keys, because my current fluegel has amado keys and I could never get all the moisture out. I had to literally blow the moisture all the way through the horn and out the bell to get rid of it. For anyone that has done this knows, it can be a noisy - yet effective - task.

I had fairly limited time to play this horn, but my first impressions are - WOW (my choice of words is getting redundant and not very expressive - sorry). Its got a beautifully dark and rich tone. Remarkably easy to blow. Intonation is VERY good compared to what I'm used to.

I plan to have the same pro look this one over as well. I'll add his comments here too.

Cheers,
Shermy