Medium Bore Bachs

Tim80 · 11-28-2003, 11:25 PM

I've seen a couple of medium bore Bachs for sale. One was a Bach 37 and the other was a Bach 38. How do these horns play? How do these horns stack up compared to a Schilke or Yamaha medium bore trumpets?

Tim

Anonymous · 11-29-2003, 12:01 AM

Bach 38? We will have to let the experts weigh in on that one but to my knowledge I don't think a 38 exists. In my opinion a good Bach 37 will stand up to any horn out there. ML for Bbs. Large bore for the C trumpet is the way most people go.

TM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim80

I've seen a couple of medium bore Bachs for sale. One was a Bach 37 and the other was a Bach 38. How do these horns play? How do these horns stack up compared to a Schilke or Yamaha medium bore trumpets?

Tim

Larry Gianni · 11-30-2003, 07:30 PM

Hi all,

A bach medium bore trumpet .453 comes standard with a # 38 bell, even to this day . I don't believe that they call the model a #38 thou, they still call it a #37 model, just with a med. bore. It will still come with a 25 leadpipe stock.

I have a New York Bach , Mdl 37 med. bore . It does have the # 38 bell and plays great. If I found a #37 NY bell , that would be something I'd like to try on this one.

Don't let a bore size influence how you percieve a horn to play. If you blow on a straight tube thats .459 bore or a straight tube thats .453 bore, I don't think you can tell the difference. It's all in the resistance factor. including your mouthpieces rim, cup, throat, backbore and gap dimentions.

Malcom Mcnabb ( the absolute top studio call trumpet player for movie/TV sound tracks. all the rest always take a seat next to the first tprt chair if they know Malcolms on the call) uses 2 NY Bach's medium bore Bb's , one silver and one laqueur. He says it give him greater control than a ML. At one time he useed a NY Bach large bore ( so did Bernie Glow ), but after awhile , even thou the sound was a better quality and more pleasing to his ear , he decided it was just to much work for the kinds of things he had to play.

check out his site - alot of valuble info about the LA movie/TV soundtrack recording scene:

http://www.malcolmmcnab.com/

Lew Soloff uses both a NY Bach Med. bore Bb and a NY Bach Sm. bore Bb trumpets with both a Bach 3c ( several variations by different mouthpiece makers ) and a Schilke 14a4a ( lead work )

Scott Englebright also uses a Bach model #37 , medium bore with his Marc. Bobby Shew mouthpiece - I don't know what bell's on it thou, but it's hard to think of a better lead trpt sound comming from any horn ( or player )

If you have a piece you have to play that makes you " walk on egg shells " - a Bach Med. bore # 37 with either the 37 or 38 bell will really help out the situation.
Remember, all trumpets and mouthpiece makes are tools to be used to play better music. It's what comes out the bell that ultimaltly counts.

You don't enter the indy 500 with a Hummer , but you don't climb a mountain with a formula one racer either. so which car is better ?

Larry Gianni

( not a Bach expert by a long shot, but trying to learning with a little help from my friends)

Larry Gianni · 12-01-2003, 12:10 AM

Hi all

Thanks Dave for your comment to my last post.

You could be absolutly right on Scott's equipment . I think you'll agree , when ever someone mentions a certain player plays a bach 37 - Med. Lrg. is the natural assumption of the bore size of that model trumpet

Just to preface my Englebright equipment description , I happened to talk to Scott here in L.A. when he was trying to decide about what to do about the condition of his Bach. He has a very acid based persperation problem that really plays havoc with the brass on his horn. He was trying out other Bach's but none played as free as his did. So he had a dilema , repair his old one or buy a different one, plus Scott is definitly no " gearhead " so it made his decision even more difficult for him. He really didn't even know what repairman would be the best if he decided to try to slavage his original trumpet.

He left town shortly after that conversation ( he has his girlfriend in Hayward California, were he likes to stay when he's off the road ) so I never found out the outcome of what he decided to do.

Check out: Greg Evens great site

http://www.trumpetstuff.com/Home.html

( you might have to click on Scott Englebright to bring it up ) were it give a description of Scott's equipment.

I thought he had a early Elkhart Bach 37 - med. bore that played really free, like no other Bach I ever tried, but was stamped " medium bore " ( actually M ) on the 2nd valve casing.

I actually have a call into his place ( before I wrote the first Bach post ) in Hayward and left a message with his girl friend asking Scott to get back to me when he could either by phone or e-mail. Scott's a great talker so I'm sure he get back to me and I'll let you know what he says.

Again, I can be wrong about this and if I am , I apologize now to all and thank you, sincerely for the correction.

Thanks again for your kind words , Dave - I read all your posts, they are excellent.

Larry

MPM · 12-01-2003, 11:46 AM

Hey Larry,

Some time, maybe 6 months or so, ago Scott had posted on the MF Tribute Site that he'd crunched his bell & had to get a new bell put of his trpt. Best I recal he ws going to have a Bach 37 bell put on, but when he calls you back, ask him! When I saw him play at the Tribute To Maynard Alumni band in ST Louis, Mo this past he sounded wonderful!

To the readers: What Larry is saying about the resistance factor making player easier ... YUP! My horns are a .460 bore at the valve section, however I have gone to a #30 bore hole in my mpc and the smallest Reves stock bb (692s) for the majority of my playing. I don't notice the sound suffering any. As a matter of fact the tone / sound accually has a clearer core, and it's given me a few more notes "upstairs". And the size of the tone (fullness ... what ever) has not suffered. The more I "back-off" the better & fuller the sound gets. I guess (???) the effect is similar to playing a smaller bore horn.

BTW ... Scott and Tammy got hitched some time back, a little more than a year ago.

Regards,

Michael

MPM · 12-01-2003, 11:52 AM

A friend in St Louis use to have a med lg (.459 bore) Bach with a #38 bell. It was a beautul horn. Great sound & projection. My second favorite Bach bell, after the 37 flare.

Larry Gianni · 12-01-2003, 12:34 PM

Hi MPM,

You are right on the money about efficiency being the key to not letting " the metal " win. Thanks for the Scoot Englebright " love life " up-date. He hasn't been around town for a while, maybe that marriage thing is why. Scott's not the type of guy that going to lay low for too long.

I'm tracking Scott down as we speak. You do realize that you can put a 37 bell on and med. bore trumpet , replacing a 38.

I'll get the straight dope on this. I called a guy by the name of Louie Fasman , Maynard lead player , whose up in the Bay Area will get the word to him to give me a call. Louie told me he's on a Med. Bach , but didn't know about the bell or leadpipe change.

Also , I hope everyone realizes a " 37 " or " 72" or " 38 " is not considered an official Bach model number. Bach model number , from after the sale of Bach to Selmer in the 60's , actually starts with # 180 followed by the bore ( M,ML and L ) and bore size ie: Bach180ML - 37 That is the actual model number a med large bore with a 37 bell would be ( in laquer ) A med. bore would be M180M - 38 ( or 37 ) . The terminology of calling the trumpet by the bell number goes back to the NY /Mt. Vernon days.

In the New York days , you had the bell / bore /leadpipe combo ( plus sometimes the postal code of the NY Bach plant ) ie: 7-62 / 6 ( 7 bell , large bore . 462, 6 leadpipe ) or 7 - 59 /7 ( 7 bell . 459 bore, 7 pipe )
It's a little confusing to everyone. A bell with no number marking , on a Bb trumpet , was always considered a 37 by the time they moved to Mt. Vernon. You'd say " a 37 " and that would signify a ML, 25 pipe/ 37 bell.

Here an article from a friend of mine about Bach trumpets and models history

http://www.selmer.com/bachology/bacologyI.html

Roy is usually the guy I call with a Bach question , he really knows his stuff and has old contacts at the plant.

Another great trumpet historian/ collector is a fellow named Hal Oringer in NY . He's getting a little old now so you have to listen to the latest condition of his " prostrate " problem before you get any trumpet info out of him, but it's always worth it.

He really is a great guy and loves talking " trumpet " .

Larry

MPM · 12-01-2003, 12:55 PM

Larry,

When you talk with Scott please give him my best. Very nice guy!

That's a fantastic artilce about Bach trumpets!

John Worley · 01-09-2004, 12:27 PM

Louis plays a Callet, Grand Prix model trumpet with a Bach 65 lightweight unlaquered bell. It's a great combination, probaly the most free blowing horn I've ever played. He uses Black^Hill mouthpieces, #7ES, 7C.
He's a great trumpet player and if you want to listen to a F above double C he played, check out "Take The A Train" on Wayne Wallace's "Echoes In Blue" on Spirit Nectar records.
John Worley

jamesfrmphilly · 01-09-2004, 01:35 PM

LR180M with # 38 bell?

11-28-2003, 11:25 PM	#1 (permalink)
Tim80 New Friend Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Plant City, Florida Posts: 32	Medium Bore Bachs I've seen a couple of medium bore Bachs for sale. One was a Bach 37 and the other was a Bach 38. How do these horns play? How do these horns stack up compared to a Schilke or Yamaha medium bore trumpets? Tim

12-01-2003, 11:46 AM	#5 (permalink)
MPM Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 230	Scooters Trpt Hey Larry, Some time, maybe 6 months or so, ago Scott had posted on the MF Tribute Site that he'd crunched his bell & had to get a new bell put of his trpt. Best I recal he ws going to have a Bach 37 bell put on, but when he calls you back, ask him! When I saw him play at the Tribute To Maynard Alumni band in ST Louis, Mo this past he sounded wonderful! To the readers: What Larry is saying about the resistance factor making player easier ... YUP! My horns are a .460 bore at the valve section, however I have gone to a #30 bore hole in my mpc and the smallest Reves stock bb (692s) for the majority of my playing. I don't notice the sound suffering any. As a matter of fact the tone / sound accually has a clearer core, and it's given me a few more notes "upstairs". And the size of the tone (fullness ... what ever) has not suffered. The more I "back-off" the better & fuller the sound gets. I guess (???) the effect is similar to playing a smaller bore horn. BTW ... Scott and Tammy got hitched some time back, a little more than a year ago. Regards, Michael __________________ "~iii<O" Michael Manthey Scodwell USA Trumpets Bob Reeves Mpc's www.ultrapureoils.com Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

12-01-2003, 11:52 AM	#6 (permalink)
MPM Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 230	Bach 38 Bell A friend in St Louis use to have a med lg (.459 bore) Bach with a #38 bell. It was a beautul horn. Great sound & projection. My second favorite Bach bell, after the 37 flare. __________________ "~iii<O" Michael Manthey Scodwell USA Trumpets Bob Reeves Mpc's www.ultrapureoils.com Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

12-01-2003, 12:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
MPM Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 230	Scooter Larry, When you talk with Scott please give him my best. Very nice guy! That's a fantastic artilce about Bach trumpets! __________________ "~iii<O" Michael Manthey Scodwell USA Trumpets Bob Reeves Mpc's www.ultrapureoils.com Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

01-09-2004, 12:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
John Worley New Friend Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 1	Louis Fasman's horn Louis plays a Callet, Grand Prix model trumpet with a Bach 65 lightweight unlaquered bell. It's a great combination, probaly the most free blowing horn I've ever played. He uses Black^Hill mouthpieces, #7ES, 7C. He's a great trumpet player and if you want to listen to a F above double C he played, check out "Take The A Train" on Wayne Wallace's "Echoes In Blue" on Spirit Nectar records. John Worley

11-30-2003, 07:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
Larry Gianni Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 266	Hi all, A bach medium bore trumpet .453 comes standard with a # 38 bell, even to this day . I don't believe that they call the model a #38 thou, they still call it a #37 model, just with a med. bore. It will still come with a 25 leadpipe stock. I have a New York Bach , Mdl 37 med. bore . It does have the # 38 bell and plays great. If I found a #37 NY bell , that would be something I'd like to try on this one. Don't let a bore size influence how you percieve a horn to play. If you blow on a straight tube thats .459 bore or a straight tube thats .453 bore, I don't think you can tell the difference. It's all in the resistance factor. including your mouthpieces rim, cup, throat, backbore and gap dimentions. Malcom Mcnabb ( the absolute top studio call trumpet player for movie/TV sound tracks. all the rest always take a seat next to the first tprt chair if they know Malcolms on the call) uses 2 NY Bach's medium bore Bb's , one silver and one laqueur. He says it give him greater control than a ML. At one time he useed a NY Bach large bore ( so did Bernie Glow ), but after awhile , even thou the sound was a better quality and more pleasing to his ear , he decided it was just to much work for the kinds of things he had to play. check out his site - alot of valuble info about the LA movie/TV soundtrack recording scene: http://www.malcolmmcnab.com/ Lew Soloff uses both a NY Bach Med. bore Bb and a NY Bach Sm. bore Bb trumpets with both a Bach 3c ( several variations by different mouthpiece makers ) and a Schilke 14a4a ( lead work ) Scott Englebright also uses a Bach model #37 , medium bore with his Marc. Bobby Shew mouthpiece - I don't know what bell's on it thou, but it's hard to think of a better lead trpt sound comming from any horn ( or player ) If you have a piece you have to play that makes you " walk on egg shells " - a Bach Med. bore # 37 with either the 37 or 38 bell will really help out the situation. Remember, all trumpets and mouthpiece makes are tools to be used to play better music. It's what comes out the bell that ultimaltly counts. You don't enter the indy 500 with a Hummer , but you don't climb a mountain with a formula one racer either. so which car is better ? Larry Gianni ( not a Bach expert by a long shot, but trying to learning with a little help from my friends)

12-01-2003, 12:10 AM	#4 (permalink)
Larry Gianni Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 266	Hi all Thanks Dave for your comment to my last post. You could be absolutly right on Scott's equipment . I think you'll agree , when ever someone mentions a certain player plays a bach 37 - Med. Lrg. is the natural assumption of the bore size of that model trumpet Just to preface my Englebright equipment description , I happened to talk to Scott here in L.A. when he was trying to decide about what to do about the condition of his Bach. He has a very acid based persperation problem that really plays havoc with the brass on his horn. He was trying out other Bach's but none played as free as his did. So he had a dilema , repair his old one or buy a different one, plus Scott is definitly no " gearhead " so it made his decision even more difficult for him. He really didn't even know what repairman would be the best if he decided to try to slavage his original trumpet. He left town shortly after that conversation ( he has his girlfriend in Hayward California, were he likes to stay when he's off the road ) so I never found out the outcome of what he decided to do. Check out: Greg Evens great site http://www.trumpetstuff.com/Home.html ( you might have to click on Scott Englebright to bring it up ) were it give a description of Scott's equipment. I thought he had a early Elkhart Bach 37 - med. bore that played really free, like no other Bach I ever tried, but was stamped " medium bore " ( actually M ) on the 2nd valve casing. I actually have a call into his place ( before I wrote the first Bach post ) in Hayward and left a message with his girl friend asking Scott to get back to me when he could either by phone or e-mail. Scott's a great talker so I'm sure he get back to me and I'll let you know what he says. Again, I can be wrong about this and if I am , I apologize now to all and thank you, sincerely for the correction. Thanks again for your kind words , Dave - I read all your posts, they are excellent. Larry

12-01-2003, 12:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
Larry Gianni Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 266	Hi MPM, You are right on the money about efficiency being the key to not letting " the metal " win. Thanks for the Scoot Englebright " love life " up-date. He hasn't been around town for a while, maybe that marriage thing is why. Scott's not the type of guy that going to lay low for too long. I'm tracking Scott down as we speak. You do realize that you can put a 37 bell on and med. bore trumpet , replacing a 38. I'll get the straight dope on this. I called a guy by the name of Louie Fasman , Maynard lead player , whose up in the Bay Area will get the word to him to give me a call. Louie told me he's on a Med. Bach , but didn't know about the bell or leadpipe change. Also , I hope everyone realizes a " 37 " or " 72" or " 38 " is not considered an official Bach model number. Bach model number , from after the sale of Bach to Selmer in the 60's , actually starts with # 180 followed by the bore ( M,ML and L ) and bore size ie: Bach180ML - 37 That is the actual model number a med large bore with a 37 bell would be ( in laquer ) A med. bore would be M180M - 38 ( or 37 ) . The terminology of calling the trumpet by the bell number goes back to the NY /Mt. Vernon days. In the New York days , you had the bell / bore /leadpipe combo ( plus sometimes the postal code of the NY Bach plant ) ie: 7-62 / 6 ( 7 bell , large bore . 462, 6 leadpipe ) or 7 - 59 /7 ( 7 bell . 459 bore, 7 pipe ) It's a little confusing to everyone. A bell with no number marking , on a Bb trumpet , was always considered a 37 by the time they moved to Mt. Vernon. You'd say " a 37 " and that would signify a ML, 25 pipe/ 37 bell. Here an article from a friend of mine about Bach trumpets and models history http://www.selmer.com/bachology/bacologyI.html Roy is usually the guy I call with a Bach question , he really knows his stuff and has old contacts at the plant. Another great trumpet historian/ collector is a fellow named Hal Oringer in NY . He's getting a little old now so you have to listen to the latest condition of his " prostrate " problem before you get any trumpet info out of him, but it's always worth it. He really is a great guy and loves talking " trumpet " . Larry

01-09-2004, 01:35 PM	#10 (permalink)
jamesfrmphilly Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: the north philly ghetto Posts: 366	LR180M with # 38 bell? __________________ 1946 Martin Committee, Bach 5V

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