My son is starting band this year, and he will be using my old Olds Special trumpet. Based on serial number info I have, it was made in 1974. It is nickel with lacquer, and the lacquer is coming off in spots. Even though I know this horn is fine for a starter, and probably better than most, I am worried that he may not stick with trumpet if he feels insecure about having an ugly horn. I have read some posts here on removing lacquer on brass horns, but not nickel horns.

A couple of questions:
1. Should I try to remove the lacquer?

2. If so, is this horn old enough that the lacquer will come off easily with hot water? If it requires chemicals, I may just forget it.

3. If I take the lacquer off, how will the horn age, being nickel plated?

Thanks,
Jim

I understand your concern. Having played trumpet for over 40 years, including working as a band director for 3 years, \I was pleased when my 7th grade son took up trumpet last year in 7th grade (earliest grade offered in school). I gave him my Olds Super to play. When I visited the school, I noticed all the other kids had bright shiny silver trumpets. Mine kid had dull looking faded gold trumpet. I played a few of the shiny ones and came to the conclusion that the student horns being made today are junk! Still, I know he feels self concious with my Olds at about 60% gold lacquer remaining.

Regarding your Olds Special -it is a great horn. It was my second horn (after an Olds Ambassador) and played well. I've heard Olds quality dropped in the 70s so can't speak for your year. The problem you face is that you could pick up a reconditioned and silver plated one for $500-700. Sending yours off to be silver plated would likely cost $400 or more (though many say resilvering lowers the value).

I'll be interested to see what others recommend regarding removing the lacquer.

Best of luck.

Here is my take - from just messing around with a bunch of trumpets that I purchased on ebay. I now own 11 Olds trumpets/cornets - mostly Ambassadors and Specials and have stripped/polished more than half of them. They come out looking beautiful in bare brass but then they need a bit more care after they are stripped. By the way, the age of my Olds horns range from my original 1952 Cornet up to one of the very last trumpets made in 1979. I can state with confidence that there is no difference in how they play. In fact, the only significant mechanical difference that I can see at all (other than minor things like braces, water keys, and engraving) is the fact that they went from brass valve guides to nylon sometime in the 70's but I cannot tell that it affects the play at all. I think that the Olds Special models are very pretty and nice sounding so if I were you, I would make every effort to put it into condition that is acceptable to your son so he will continue to play it. Before long, when he can really play it, he will be grateful that he stuck with it. It really is an heirloom model - not just a trinket as some of the newer ones are.

Yet, I understand the desire for "shiny" over "sound" at this age. So, here is my recommendation. Yes, a bath in hot water will remove the lacquer. On some brands of horns, the lacquer slides off like a sheet of cellophane but on the Olds, it is a bit harder to remove. Disassemble the horn (don't put the valves into the hot water) and fill a plastic laundry tub - or similar container - with enough boiling water to completely submerge the horn (the hotter it is, the faster and more completely the lacquer will come off). Leave it for an hour or so. Just before you remove the horn, add a bit of mild dish soap to the water and use the cleaning snake to thoroughly clean the insides. Then take a soft brush and go over the exterior to remove the lacquer, especially between the valve casings and other tight spots. Then rinse it thoroughly and dry it off.

Now comes the fun part. There will still be tarnish and discoloration of the brass where the lacquer had been missing so take some metal polish (I use Mother's Billett and/or Turtle Wax Polishing compound) and use a cloth that is not too soft such as a dishtowl that will 'burnish' the metal as you work the metal polish. The nickel-plated sections should not need to be polished unless they are showing discoloration. My Special still has very bright nickel. Just concentrate on the brass sections.

As you put on the polish and then work it around and then start to buff it off, you will see black deposits on the cloth - that is the tarnish of the brass that is being removed. Keep up this process on all parts of the trumpet until you start to achieve the level of 'shininess' that you want. By the way, I do not polish the inside of the bell opening. I like to leave it that dark patina color because it makes a beautiful contrast with the shiny brass on the rest of the horn.

It may take several sessions of polishing to see the highlights start to come out in the brass. Then, when you have polished it as much as you want, use a good quality wax such as car wax to put a final polish and protective coating on it. This wax can be applied to the nickel but just to make it shinier - nickel does not tend to tarnish like brass does. There are apparently some other products that do an even better job of protecting against tarnish but I have not tried them - though you might want to experiment.

I find that the wax will keep the horn shiny for a month or two but I apparently do not have the type of body chemistry that affects brass. Some have complained of having green hands after touching raw brass but I never have. I cannot tell when I am playing whether I am holding a lacquered trumpet or a raw brass one. But, you may want to keep an eye on your son's hands for awhile to see if he is affected. You don't want him absorbing that metal through his hands.

Anyway, give it a try. You can't damage it. I have used sandpaper on some of my horns that were badly corroded and pitted to even out the metal and then have gone back over with the metal polish and it goes right back to a nice, shiny look so they are pretty resiliant.

Let us know how it works.

This is a tough situation, but from my experience, it would be very bad to remove the lacquer. When I got my Olds Recording, it was raw. Sure, raw brass can be cool if you take care of it, but there are also many set backs. When holding raw brass, many people's hands(maybe all people's hands-I don't know) turn green due to a reaction with the skin. This is not much of a problem for even a slightly experienced player, but if you are worried about your kid not thinking that the horn is shiny enough, what would be his reaction to his hands turning green after playing a horn with a pungent brass smell? Moreover, even polished raw brass is not very shiny and would probably be less shiny than the horn now. My recommendation is to either leave it as is or get it relacquered at Kanstul. Kanstul does a great job and is one of the cheapest, if not the cheapest because they make their own lacquer (175-250 dollars). I got my recording lacquered at Kanstul. I'm assuming that the horn is made of nickel and not nickel plated. You contradict yourself in the original post. If it is nickel plated, then you should definitely leave it as is. Hopefully that helps.

Good luck.

Yes, as I mentioned, when the lacquer is stripped, additional care must be taken. But, in my mind, this can be a positive. We all know that the trumpet should be given a "bath" every month or two to clean out the gunk and prevent red rot from corroding the metal from the inside. Most don't remember to do that. If you make that a good time to re-apply a coat of wax to the brass, then that cleaning session has a dual purpose and it is easier to remember to do it. Again, not everyone is affected by bare brass. I am not and several of the players in our band have raw brass and they are not affected. It depends on the care you take and also, to some extent, body chemistry. If that becomes an issue, you can send it to be re-lacquered or you can do it yourself. Lacquer is just like paint and comes in a spray can from the hardware store and with some reasonable skill and care, you can do it if that becomes a concern.

As far as the nickel is concerned, I don't think that you contradicted yourself. It is clear that you referred to nickel plating in both statements. Besides, I do not know of a nickel trumpet and certainly the Olds were not nickel. They have nickel plating on certain areas for highlights. The nickel plated parts are covered with lacquer because they do the entire horn. The lacquer will come off of the nicklel parts when it comes off of the brass. That will not hurt the nickel. When you put wax on the trumpet, you can wax the entire thing. That will keep the nickel shiny, too.

As far as the polished brass not being as shiny as the lacquer, I have posted a photo here. It shows three of my trumpets. Look at it and see if you can tell the difference. Below the photo, I will explain the difference. Also, there are numerous threads here which show photos even more impressive than this one that shows the appearance of polished brass instruments. Here is a link to one. Look at the before-and-after phonts in post #3 of this thread. I shows what a polished horn looks like.
http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/f139...ing-35715.html (Lacquer Stripping)

Here is my comparison photo:



The top trumpet is one that has perfect lacquer. It looks like it is brand new. You can see how shiny the lacquer makes it. By the way, this is a King and not an Olds because none of my Olds have perfect lacquer. It seems that Olds are played a lot and do not sit in the case looking pretty.

The middle trumpet is one of my Olds that still has the lacquer on it. It is not perfect (you can see some discolored areas) but it is still pretty shiny. You can compare it to the King and see that both have about the same level of lustre.

The bottom trumpet is one of My Olds that has been stripped and polished. When I got it, it was very ugly. It looked like it had been left outdoors for years and would never play again. I did to it what I recommended to you and now it looks and plays great. Compare the lustre to the two above which still have the lacquer. If you saw them all sitting side-by-side you could not tell which one was stripped. They all look very nice and any student would be happy to have them where their friends could see them.

I hope this helps you - and your son - decide what to do with your Special.

Thanks for all the feedback. I want to clarify that the entire horn is nickel plated -- except for a couple areas where the lacquer wore off and eventually the nickel plating wore through to expose some brass.

I'm not aware of a solid nickel horn, either. Although, I do have a Getzen Eterna cornet with is silver in color and even the inside of the slides are silver color instead of normal brass...Hmmm. Not sure why.

I will try to post some pictures of the horn tonight. I went to the music store last night to get a new mouthpiece (director wants the kids to start on a Bach 5C) and some new water key cork. The horn plays great now. I'd forgotten that I was missing the tuning valve water key cork until I pulled it out yesterday. It's a large bore (probably about .460). I always liked the tone it made. Just a little harder to blow than my Strad.

Later,
Jim

In marching band, I carried and played a sousaphone which was silver colored. I have no idea if it was nickel or silver plated. Since they are large and prominent, we we "required" to polish them. I remember using Brasso, even though these horns were not brass colored.

But the point is, we polished them - much like you have to (or did have to) polish your shoes in the military. It is about looking good, and it is about discipline too. A youngster can learn the value of keeping things clean and shiny, and take pleasure in polishing up his trumpet. And, compared to hours for a sousaphone, a trumpet is done in much less time. Pride in how it looks is then attached to the effort in making it so, and not just because your folks bought you a shiny new horn. This is called developing values. It can carry over into many other areas, including the actual learning of how to play and grow musically.

veery

OK, so this is interesting -- from the Olds Central website:
1953 Olds Price List

It seems that the "lacquer" finish on my nickel plated Olds is really epoxy. In that case, it will probably be much harder to remove. It says that the NL-10 (i.e. Olds Special Trumpet) was only available with nickel plate finish.
Also, this guide refers to "solid Nickel Silver Instruments" -- so I guess they did make some of those, too.

The 1977 catalog (1977 Olds Catalog) talks about the nickel plate with baked on epoxy finish. I suppose this means that the "lacquer" will be harder to remove.

I am thinking about leaving it alone and seeing if he complains about it. Still, I'd be interested to hear if anyone has stripped the lacquer off of a nickel plated horn. From what I gather, I won't have the "green hands" problem. If so, if I take the epoxy off, I may have a nice looking horn. I'll post pics tonight.

Thanks again,
Jim

Originally Posted by lazygoodan

Thanks for all the feedback. I want to clarify that the entire horn is nickel plated -- except for a couple areas where the lacquer wore off and eventually the nickel plating wore through to expose some brass.

I'm not aware of a solid nickel horn, either. Although, I do have a Getzen Eterna cornet with is silver in color and even the inside of the slides are silver color instead of normal brass...Hmmm. Not sure why.

OK, I guess I had a picture in my mind of my Special which is lacquered brass with nickel highlights. So, in your case, I would guess that the trumpet is silver plated. I am not aware that Olds ever completely nickel-plated a trumpet although I suppose it could have been a special order. If it is silver, it would not likely be covered with lacquer. So, maybe the pictures will give us a better idea of what you have and what is the best way to deal with it. Certainly all of the brass polishing steps that I ourlined will not help in your case. It sounds like it would need to be replated in either silver or nickel. Nickel will give a bright, mirror-like finish - almost like chrome. Silver will give a softer finish as it is softer and scratches more easily. Here is a photo of two of my trumpets. The one on the left is silver plated and the one on the right has a nickel-plated bell (this is the most nickel that I have personally seen on a trumpet). You can see that the silver one already has signs of scratching due to the polishing cloth and it is less than a year old. The one on the right is over 50 years old and it is in completely original condition. You can see how bright and mirror-like the nickel plating is by comparison.


Also, I suspect that nickel creates a thicker surface and may affect the sound more than silver but I am not certain so it would need to be checked out.

I bathed my 1965 Special in luke warm water and all the laquer/epoxy came off! The horn was stored in its case for 42 years so that might have something to do with it.
What do you think?