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Horns Discuss professional vs. student model trumpets in the Equipment forums; Originally Posted by Decentplayer Morris, you're pretty much a beginner yourself, there are many other professional trumpets than you state. ...
  1. #11
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    Re: professional vs. student model trumpets

    Quote Originally Posted by Decentplayer View Post
    Morris, you're pretty much a beginner yourself, there are many other professional trumpets than you state. Any professional player can play a student trumpet and sound great.
    I was only citing examples of professional trumpets.
    I was supposed to give a complete list of professional trumpets?

    A professional can play a student trumpet, but he will feel that the trumpet is fighting against him in various ways, such as in bore size and in tone and in fingering speed.
    For example, I had to give up on student-level instruments a couple of years ago because the student-level instruments sounded like they were literally coming apart at the seams when I blasted very loud G's above High C through them.

    As for being a beginner, I began in 5th grade, played in band for 5 years through Junior High, then continued on my own for another couple of years after that, finally working out embouchure problems via Reinhardt and experimenting with various mouthpieces.
    My comeback started about 5 years ago, when I played a High C within a minute or so of receiving a trumpet as a Christmas present.
    I have experimented with a multitude of different trumpets and cornets, plus a multitude of mouthpieces before finding what suits me, so that I now play scales and ballads up to G's above High C's (with very little mouthpiece pressure) that can be heard a block away even though I have all my house windows shut.
    (Last year I squeaked out a couple of tiny Double C's with a Wick 4E.)

    In Junior High I started on a cornet, brand I don't remember.
    Then after I dropped out of band I switched to trumpet, brand I don't remember.
    In my come-back I have owned, in the approximate order that I owned them showing progression from student trumpets to semi-professional trumpets as my embouchure matured, Getzen 300, Holton 602, King 601, Yamaha 2320, Bach 300, 1952 Conn 22B (it was falling apart but sounded incredibly great), Holton Galaxy, 1970 Conn 22B, Holton Super Collegiate (an intermediate level instrument), Conn 5A (professional level), now looking for a replacement 1940's-1960's Conn 22B in very good condition.
    As for mouthpieces that I have owned, both 30 years ago and recently, Bach 7C, Schilke 6a4a, Holton MF3, Marcinkawhatever 3C, Bach 3C, Weril W46, Bach 3E, Schilke 13a4a, Schilke 14a4a, Schilke 14B, Schilke 15B, Schilke 10a4a, Yamaha 11E, Yamaha 13E, Yamaha 14E, Curry 7Z, Curry 60M, Curry 50M, Curry 40M, Bach 7, Bach 7E, Bach 7D, Conn 4, Conn 7C, Holton 66, Holton 77, Wick 4E.

    Any embouchure problems I am experiencing right now are due to the fact that I am playing a new instrument with a radically different bore size than I have ever played before, but practice is slowly eliminating the problems and rapidly getting me back to where I was on the previous instrument.
    My weakness is that I don't read music all that well, so I tend to stick with slow ballads.

    Over the last 40 years I have about 12 years playing experience.
    So I am an untalented amateur, but I don't consider myself a beginner.
    I am able to understand many embouchure problems and advise others on how to deal with them because I went through many, many such problems over the years before finally fixing them all in my own playing.
    So I can advise on problems with upstream embouchure versus downstream embouchure, bottoming out problems, effect of using different mouthpiece diameters and cup depths and cup shapes and throats and backbores, rim shapes, mouthpiece pressure, increasing range and endurance, Reinhardt basics.

    I am unable to join any kind of community band because I have a chronic illness that is worsening year-by-year leaving me permanently handicapped and strong enough to play for only 10 minutes at a time. But I continue playing on my own because it gives me joy and satisfaction.

    My favorite foods and movies are...

    - Morris
    Last edited by screamingmorris; 05-14-2008 at 06:05 PM.

  2. #12
    Mezzo Forte User Decentplayer's Avatar
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    Re: professional vs. student model trumpets

    Nah, of course not morris. Once, I gave my opinion on something and some members ragged on me. You might find that might happen. So how's the playing going?? You shouldn't call yourself and untalented amateur, I'm sure you might be better than you think. And, I also have a disablity also. We seem to have some stuff in common. Maybe we can chat some time.







  3. #13
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    Re: professional vs. student model trumpets

    Quote Originally Posted by Decentplayer View Post
    Nah, of course not morris. Once, I gave my opinion on something and some members ragged on me. You might find that might happen. So how's the playing going?? You shouldn't call yourself and untalented amateur, I'm sure you might be better than you think...
    If I played on American Idol, the judges would say, "Well, he certainly plays with heart-felt enthusiasm!"

    (Imagine John Wayne getting drunk and singing "Danny Boy" while tears stream down his cheeks and you'll get the general idea.)

    Follow-up to my post:
    Other professional instruments I have tried but *without* owning them include:
    Holton ST302 (loved it)
    Holton ST304 (it was so-so)
    Holton C103 (loved it)
    .468 bore Schilke (I don't know the model number, but I didn't care for it nearly as much as the Holton ST302 because the Schilke seemed dead by comparison)
    Bach Strad (I don't know the details of which bell, bore, etc, but it was just so-so).
    1950's Olds Studio (it was good)

    Other student instruments I have tried but *without* owning them include:
    Holton C603 (loved it, much better than a C602)
    1948 Olds Ambassador (it was so-so)

    - Morris

  4. #14
    Piano User RGood's Avatar
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    Re: professional vs. student model trumpets

    Morris -

    I'm right with your quote on this - if you practice and improve your playing - you will probably outgrow the student horn. I couldn't believe what a difference it made when I moved from my Olds Ambassador to the Getzen Eterna - range, tone, valves responsiveness. The Olds was great - served its purpose - rock solid. Still wish I could have afforded that Schilke back then - was only $600 back then (1967) and the Getzen was just under $300 - but it was what I could afford!

    Keep on playing - and offering the advice/perspective.

    Bob

    P.S. I fell off the horse - was on the PC more than I practiced today....again....
    Kanstul 1525 Flugel
    Yamaha Bobby Shew 6310Z Flugel
    1967 Getzen Eterna (my 2nd - still going strong after all these years)
    1961 Olds Special (my 1st...battered, bruised, & passed around but back home)

  5. #15
    Forte User Trumpet guy's Avatar
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    Re: professional vs. student model trumpets

    Quote Originally Posted by Decentplayer View Post
    Any professional player can play a student trumpet and sound great.
    That is true, but the largest difference between the student and professional horns is the feel and the blow (although a discrepancy in sound quality does exists)

    That being said, even though professionals can play great on any horn, a higher quality horn makes their job easier.
    ConnDirectorFan likes this.
    "If you're not improving, you're falling behind." - My Trumpet Teacher, Steve
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  6. #16
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    Re: professional vs. student model trumpets

    Quote Originally Posted by screamingmorris View Post
    ...
    .468 bore Schilke (I don't know the model number, but I didn't care for it nearly as much as the Holton ST302 because the Schilke seemed dead by comparison)...
    To be fair, I remembered something this morning that probably colored my impression of that Schilke.
    I usually try out a trumpet with my own mouthpiece or with a very similar mouthpiece.
    But when I tried that Schilke in the Spring of 1977, I used that owner's mouthpiece that I was not used to.
    So I don't know how much of that "dead" feel and tone was due to the trumpet and how much was due to the mouthpiece.
    I wish someone around my town had a Schilke that I could try now so that I could get a fresh impression of one.

    - Morris

  7. #17
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    Re: professional vs. student model trumpets

    Quote Originally Posted by RGood View Post
    Morris -

    I'm right with your quote on this - if you practice and improve your playing - you will probably outgrow the student horn. I couldn't believe what a difference it made when I moved from my Olds Ambassador to the Getzen Eterna - range, tone, valves responsiveness....
    Same here when I moved from a Conn Director to a Conn 22B.
    I *immediately* sounded so much *better*, with the very first notes that came out of the Conn 22B.
    Same manufacturer, same bore size, same brass material, same general era of maufacture, but the professional-level 22B sounded *so* much better than the student-level Director that they were not in the same league.

    But if I had been a *beginning* player I might have sounded virtually identical on the 2 instruments, with an immature embouchure unable to take advantage of the 22B's superior potential.

    - Morris
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  8. #18
    Piano User RGood's Avatar
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    Re: professional vs. student model trumpets

    An experienced player can get the best out of any horn. When I was at my best - could tell and feel the difference in the horn I was playing. But it always amazed me when I loaned my horn to some really good players - same horn - very different results.

    Same goes with any instrument - I'm just beginning on guitar - and my younger son has been playing for a few years and has gotten reasonably accomplished. I sound the same on his way more expensive guitars - clearly a rank beginner - whereas he can make my modest Seagull acoustic just sing - and when he plays his classical guitar (Pavan TP-30) - its just amazing difference in sound, timbre, voicing.

    My current stable of horns is wondering when I'll get back to tapping their potential!!!!!!


    Morris - what was the model Conn that Maynard used to play in the early days? Know it was a big bore - we used to joke that it was a stove pipe - but man he made it sing and scream.

    Regards,

    Bob
    Kanstul 1525 Flugel
    Yamaha Bobby Shew 6310Z Flugel
    1967 Getzen Eterna (my 2nd - still going strong after all these years)
    1961 Olds Special (my 1st...battered, bruised, & passed around but back home)

  9. #19
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    Re: professional vs. student model trumpets

    Quote Originally Posted by RGood View Post
    ...

    Morris - what was the model Conn that Maynard used to play in the early days? Know it was a big bore - we used to joke that it was a stove pipe - but man he made it sing and scream.

    Regards,

    Bob
    Maynard Ferguson played a Conn Connstellation 38B (so did Cat Anderson) which had a tiny .438 bore but which played as though it was a much bigger bore because it had such little resistance.

    The Conn Loyalist

    Most of the most popular Conn trumpets 1920's through 1960's had that .438 bore, including the 22B, although a few models like the 2B had a .458 bore.

    By comparison, most trumpets today have approximately .460 bores.
    Maynard's Holton ST302 had a .468 bore.

    - Morris

  10. #20
    Piano User Claude Gnocchi's Avatar
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    Re: professional vs. student model trumpets

    Quote Originally Posted by RGood View Post
    An experienced player can get the best out of any horn. When I was at my best - could tell and feel the difference in the horn I was playing. But it always amazed me when I loaned my horn to some really good players - same horn - very different results.Bob

    Indeed....it is said that Chet Baker recorded a few albums with old student horns (like Bundys) that he bought at pawn shops....and still....he was the great jazz trumpeter he was......

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