bandman

Pardon the stupidity of this question, but I'm serious. I would especially like Leigh McKinney to answer this question.

There are some great horns that have become “collectors items” because those horns play superior to most other horns. Now I understand that those horns were great, but with the technology we have today, why can we not exactly create those instruments from the past?

I have great respect for Leigh, so I’m going to use him as an example. Let’s suppose that Leigh decided next week that he was tired of making trumpets. If the other fine folks at Eclipse were to use Leigh’s specifications, would the instruments in theory not play the exact same as the trumpets they are making now?

Using the same theory, someone must own the rights to the Bach Trumpets as made in Mt. Vernon, so why can they not take the exact specs and create an exact duplicate of a Mt. Vernon Bach? I’m not talking about making close copies, but using the exact same materials, and cutting and shaping each horn to the exact same specs as the originals.

One more question; Why is it that a repaired, or replated, Mt.Vernon is considered to be valuable like an original? It seems to me that once the instrument has been modified that it would either be better or worse than the original. To me, the only Mt. Vernon that would be considered as super valuable would be one that has not been repaired and is in original condition.

Again I apologize for the stupid question. I once sold a Yamaha trumpet because I damaged the lead pipe and had it replaced. I loved the horn with the original lead pipe, but the replacement made it play very different. I would assume the same would go if an old horn of any make or model was repaired or had replacement parts.

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ADziuk

I have the same question. You know, I don't believe in magic, but sometimes it seems like certain horns have that "something."

For example, so, SO, many companies have tried to make "exact duplicates" of Mt. Vernon horns. Most recently being the Chicago artist model(well this one isn't EXACT). Obviously Mr. Malone, who is a very skilled repairer/builder and Yamaha went to a lot of trouble, money, and personal sweat to create a great horn. While the CHS is obviously a great horn, it really doesn't(IMHO) sound as good as the two Mt. Vernon C large bore trumpets I have played in my lifetime. My immediate thought when I played it was "something is missing here."

So what is it? IDK. I mean, a trumpet is just some bass pipe attatched together. What the heck is so difficult about it? Maybe we will never know, and I would also appreciate some insight into this from someone who really feels like they have a good answer.

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"Everyone should carefully observe which way his heart draws him, and then choose that way with all his strength."

tom turner

Hi,

A 50 year old used horn is very much like a 50 year old used car . . . ya don't REALLY know what you've got sometimes . . . unless it has 10,000 miles on the car, was only driven by granny and always kept in a garage. Not many cars or horns are pristine like that.

Thus, the chance of the average Joe ever getting to give a truly fair evaluation of a normal 50 year old horn are slim. Instead, most people will play a specimen that may not represent the original horn well.

I find it mildly humorous, but also mildly insulting, that there's suddenly a huge "revival" by Yamaha and Bach of the pre-'56, ORIGINAL F. Besson type wrap Bach.

Vincent himself finally abandoned that wrap in '56 for the taller wrap that he discovered had better intonation than the original F. Besson wrap that both he and Benge originally used.

Today . . . with most of the original, mature and seasoned players of the NEW 1956 Mt. Vernons long retired or dead . . . the long-discarded wrap is seeing a "revival" to lure today's trumpeters to a nostalgic idea that the originals were better . . . so thus the new version will be better too. This makes NO SENSE logically . . . and NO ONE is talking about why Bach abandoned the shorter heigth wrap . . . because no one really knows anymore . . . or they choose just to sit back quietly amused about the whole affair!!!

I had the chance to buy a literally brand new pre-56 Mt. Vernon in 1975 . . . and I jumped on it in a heartbeat. It was the most gorgeous horn. French bead, open wrap (dead bell design) bell . . . workmanship that was awe-inspiring when placed next to a new Selmer-Bach . . . a sound to die for.

Wow . . . it was a 43 with the rare factory 1st valve trigger. I suspect the horn is still pristine today too!!! Why? Because that sucker was a terrible horn . . . a REAL BAD specimen. The horn got extremely sharp as one ascended and thus I couldn't use it professionally.

That's how the early Mt. Vernon horns were. Some were awesome, some mediocre and some . . . well . . . some were terrible like the one I bought used from a guy for $200. Vincent was a perfectionist . . . but his wife was the one who made sure the tiny company made a profit and stayed afloat . . . if you get my drift !!!

I think today's Bachs are much more consistent. Most are decent, just a few are terrible . . . but probable less are stunning vs. the Mt. Vernon days.

HOWEVER, the way Mr. Bach annealed the bells, cut the bells from brass stock, and then crafted the bell (including the open wrap French bead) . . . was all abandoned by Selmer. Those are the things that made 'em magical.

Also keep in mind that back then the Bachs were made to order for a working pro or teacher, thus Mr. Bach would dial-in and enhance each specimen to the specific requests of the original buyer. Some had some unique tastes that were radically different than a horn that's made for the average student. This means that some of 'em play really different vs. most "plain-vanilla" models encountered today from an assembly-line factory.

In that same light, many of you might not like my Wild Thing. It started as a very free-blowing specimen . . . and has since been opened up a couple of thousandths more to blow even freer than a stock one . . . and I'm in "hog heaven!" Again, not the type of blow to hand to the average H.S. student though, but then again, that isn't the "target market!"

The Mt. Vernons were basically out of reach of the massive student market in the 1925-1965 era . . . made in tiny numbers with specific requests. Thus . . . these 5,500 instruments developed quite a mystique. Along with that mystique comes a whipped-up desire by many to own one of those gorgeous horns.

Are they better? THEY SURE ARE . . . IF YOU BELIEVE IT!


Will collectors and players think the same of the Callet, Blackburn, Lawler, Flip Oakes, Roy Lawler, Eclipse and Monette, and other high-end, limited production horns of today?

Probably . . . if for no other reason than these specialized horns are both geared to a very small and discerning market . . . and because most people will not have ever played one. Rarity DOES this. Will those beat up 50 year old horns that are new today REALLY blow people away? Again . . . only if they are pristine!!!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

Schwab

I think the narrower F. Besson wrap allows for more manipulation of the pitch, the pitch seems to lock in more with the taller wrap. I prefer this (on Bach trumpets at least). Yamaha isn't using the narrower wrap, just the new Bach C trumpet.

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Dylan Schwab
Stage 1 New York

tom turner

A return to a design obsoleted a half-century ago when a better innovation came along.

Benge never changed . . . and the Kanstul Chicago series currently uses the old F. Besson/pre-56 Bach/Benge narrow wrap.

eclipse trumpets

Hi Bandman

I only just saw this thread.

I am just about to leave for the workshop but will answer this in full when i get back home this evening okay.

Regards

Leigh

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Eclipse Trumpets

Eclipsetrumpets.com

Veldkamp

A good Mt.Vernon is better compared to a good Elkhardt. Why, because Bach himself was one of the best builders there has ever been. Next to that, he was a very good virtuoso player. I have much respect for the builders of today but most of them miss that part. He could test his horns more like a pro player instead of (only) an craftsman. I think that gave him an advantage and it sure shows in the amount of Bach (or Selmer-Conn) horns sold on that legacy. The Bach sound is still the sound most players want, otherwise Yamaha and other brands would not have copied the Bach trumpet.

My Mt.Vernon (#30017) is a cross-over horn. It looks like an Elkhardt (no french bead) but has Mt.Vernon markings. It's one of the best Mt.Vernons I've played. The best Mt.Vernon I played belongs to my colleague, he has a ML43 #14xxx. The sound in that horn is amazing. Modern horns are better in tune and more even over the whole register but to me they all lack character compared to a good Mt.Vernon.

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www.erikveldkamp.com
http://trumpetkings.blogspot.com

eclipse trumpets

Okay Bandman

I'll start with the first part.

Bandman Wrote:- "There are some great horns that have become “collectors items” because those horns play superior to most other horns. Now I understand that those horns were great, but with the technology we have today, why can we not exactly create those instruments from the past? "

I take it you mean Olds recordings, MV'S , original Martin's etc etc.
Yes we could copy the dimensions exactly given the time and the money for the tooling.
Would they sound and play the same? probably not!
The reason for this is that we use very different mixtures of brass these days which would of course have a contributing factor to sound especially with regards to the bell.
I would agree that we could get the same blow resistance and feel to the horn as if copied correctly and to the letter, the internal dimensions would be the same.
I'm a big believer in horns being "blown in" . This can take a matter of months for some horns and years for others.
Did these vintage horns play the very same way the day they left the factories? i doubt it very much.
All horns get better with age and use in my opinion, the response times seem to get better to lesser or greater degrees from one horn to the next.
Most folks tend to find a slight change in the ease of playing after a while in their new horn.
A percentage of that will of course be that they are becoming used to the horn and have found its own little hot spots.

I will say that if you could supply me with the materials they used then to make the horns, then yes i could make it exact to what they made and i would be very confident of achieving the same response, blow , sound.

Will the current horns of today be regarded with awe when they are 50 years old and are weathered?
I think YES even more so than the vintage horns of today, as the horns that makers make today tend to be more in tune generally than those of the past.

Bandman Wrote:-

"Let’s suppose that Leigh decided next week that he was tired of making trumpets. If the other fine folks at Eclipse were to use Leigh’s specifications, would the instruments in theory not play the exact same as the trumpets they are making now? "


Out of the 4 guy's at Eclipse ,i am the only person who can assemble them at this point.
People are being trained to do this and will be doing this in the near future.
They are trained by me so i feel that they will pick up the bad habits i have as well as the good ones, and will therefore build horns the way i do.
I will of course always be there building alongside them making sure that this is the case.

Bandman Wrote:-

"One more question; Why is it that a repaired, or replated, Mt.Vernon is considered to be valuable like an original? It seems to me that once the instrument has been modified that it would either be better or worse than the original. To me, the only Mt. Vernon that would be considered as super valuable would be one that has not been repaired and is in original condition"

I can understand the horn keeping its value if all that has happened is that it has only been repaired, meaning none of the original parts have been replaced with newer ones, and no mods carried out.

If like you say the horn has been modified , parts replaced with new, or things added like triggers, different water keys etc etc, then i don't feel that they should be worth as much in my mind.

As you say the best scenario is the horn you find in Grannies attic that was never played and rarely left its case, as far as value for a collectible vintage horn goes anyway. (we could not assume it sounded as good as it looked of course!)

I hope this has helped a little.

Best Wishes

Leigh

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Eclipse Trumpets

Eclipsetrumpets.com

bandman

Leigh,

I'm honored that you gave such a complete, and honest response.

You made my day!

Dave

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soundcheck

What is the science behind a horn being 'blown' in? I know that the metal wouldn't change. Then it must be that a 'blown in' horn would have less stress than a new one?