Your thoughts and input on the new flugels.

Bruce Lee · 11-10-2003, 05:59 PM

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Your thoughts and input on the new flugels
« Thread started on: 10/09/2003 at 16:51:40 »

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We at Eclipse have always always enjoyed the input from the people who actually end up buying our products!

We think this is an essential part of the development process for any instrument.

Just to shock the people on here that do not already know, neither i or my partner John can play a single note ( and i do mean a single note)

Well i think Bruce Lee heard my attempt over the phone once and had to reach for a large bottle of Prozac!

The fact is we are 100% sure that it is this inability to play that has enabled us to make what we believe to be very good instruments.

Why so?

Because we do not have a personal preference of sound or feel ourselves.
This i feel can be a distracting thing when making horns as you tend to naturally make a horn to sound the way YOU actually like it to sound, and not for the guys /girls out there!
So what generally leaves the Eclipse Factory is an instrument that has evolved over the development period from the likes and dislikes of hundreds of trumpet players from all backgrounds of trumpet playing.

Of course this does not mean to say that we do not know what we like to hear come out of the bell, we both have our own particular favourite horns in the range.
And as for experience, well we have over 45 years of collective knowledge in this Trade.

We are developing our flugel horn and hope to launch it at the ITG in Denver next year!

I would like if you have 5 mins to melt your brains a little and ask just what it is you would like to have a flugel sound like! and also how you'd like it to feel in your hands(position of things etc etc

I know one thing, and that is you cannot please everyone, but we do like to try and please a lot!

We are very lucky to have Henry Lowther and Noel Langley play testing at every stage of the build process, and i am sure that we will have the benefit of Mr Kenny Wheelers input also.

Best Wishes

Leigh

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.eclipsetrumpets.com

Bruce Lee · 11-10-2003, 06:00 PM

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Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels
« Reply #1 on: 10/10/2003 at 14:49:19 »

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Leigh,

Thankfully, Noel and Henry erased that memory for me, very nicely! As long as you and John don't decide to treat me with a duet one day, all will be well.

Regarding a Flugel, I'll kick this off:

Most players, almost across the board, want a dark sound on the flugel. The bell shape, and design of the flugelhorn characteristically give that sound, when matched with the right mouthpiece. Sometimes it's easier to tell someone what you don't want, rather than what you want.

I feel that copper bell, or red/or rose brass bells are overkill, when it comes to materials. The flugelhorn still needs to project, particularly in a Brass Band situation. I was unfamiliar with Brass Band instrumentation until I heard the Georgia Brass Band, at a recent Trumpetfest, in Atlanta. There is only "one" player on Flugelhorn, in a "traditional" Brass Band. That kind of took me by surprise.

Our flugelhorn sound "concept" is developed from artists that we have listened to. There seems to be a tremendous array of "acceptable" commercial sounds.

At the risk of sounding patronizing, I like Chuck Mangione's sound. He was the Jazz Ensemble Director at Eastman, when I was there. He has a clarity of sound that is pleasing to my ears. It's not what I would call a dark sound, but his sound certainly doesn't get lost in the "mix".

I do like the vertical slide versions of Flugel much better than the "trumpet wrap" versions.

Hope that this helps!

Bruce

Bruce Lee · 11-10-2003, 06:01 PM

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Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels
« Reply #2 on: 10/10/2003 at 15:02:24 »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know you guys would want to be original but I have heard really nice things about the Conn Vintage One Flugel. Maybe check that out and see what they did right and improve on it. Just a suggestion. Also Vertical slides would be a must for me.

In Peace,

TM

Bruce Lee · 11-10-2003, 06:02 PM

romey1
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Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels
« Reply #3 on: 10/10/2003 at 15:11:33 »

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I agree with Trpt-master.

The Conn Vintage One seems to be the new "standard" in flugelhorn excellence.

I've heard of many people selling their Kanstuls, and Shew Models for them.

I have played several and they seem to be very consistent - easy to play (especially in the high register) and more importantly the sound is fantastic.

If I had some extra money I would "throw down" for one, but I have other priorities at the moment.

romey

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a Bach Sound - Don't Let Anyone Tell you Different!

Bruce Lee · 11-10-2003, 06:03 PM

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Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels
« Reply #4 on: 10/10/2003 at 15:20:02 »

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Thanks Bruce

But you have hurt my feelings now!

Do you mean to say that you didnt enjoy hearing me play? I'm shocked! hahaha

Well you are a trumpet teacher and also an Eclipse dealer so maybe i should get some free lessons and tips?

As for the flugel, well fortunately you will be spoilt as we are actually looking to make both a vertical and horizontal slide model.

The feedback from the guys over this side of the water so far has been that they like a slightly dark sound to the flugel but as you pointed out not overly dark.
However with the change in bell materials we hope we can achieve the type of sound for all needs, but of course there will always be the main models.

I wonder if the sound preference does in fact differ generally in the UK to that of our friends over the pond?

Regards

Leigh

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.eclipsetrumpets.com

Bruce Lee · 11-10-2003, 06:04 PM

brj
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Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels
« Reply #5 on: 10/11/2003 at 02:41:47 »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Leigh
Although it is a doublers instrument for me I've owned a good few flugels. Everyone I've had I liked, but never really loved. I've merely owned and traded on when some dealer has had a killer deal for what ever I was playing at the time plus a small amount of cash.
I can say without hesitation that the best flugel I've played is the Taylor. In the mid £2K for a doubling instrument is a big step though.
all the best
Brian Jones

Bruce Lee · 11-10-2003, 06:05 PM

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Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels
« Reply #6 on: 10/11/2003 at 04:06:09 »

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Hi,

Just my .02c. I much prefer the smaller bore horns 410/420 ish...the sound is more delicate. As a compromise maybe 433 ish like the Yamaha or Lawler. The trumpet bore flugels sound boomy to me.

Regards

Trevor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taylor Chicago II Standard
Kanstul Chicago MLP
Kanstul Flugel ZKF 1525

Bruce Lee · 11-10-2003, 06:06 PM

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Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels
« Reply #7 on: 10/12/2003 at 21:53:33 »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Leigh,

1) Can you put the bell assembly on the other side of the valve cluster so the player's right hand and fingers don't have to reach over the bell assembly to finger the valves?

2) The fluegel sound should be dark, silky and buttery (copper or red brass).

The dedicated forums, for different makes of horns, are a "great" idea.

All the best.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PAUL NELSON
Eclipse White Lightning
Getzen Eterna 900 Classic
Monette B4LD

Bruce Lee · 11-10-2003, 06:08 PM

horndevil
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Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels
« Reply #8 on: 10/15/2003 at 12:21:18 »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to agree with the other voices for the Conn V1. It simply blows most other Flugels out of the water. I play tested a heap, including Yamaha's, Bach, Challenger II"brochon",Courtois (seems to be standard in the UK brass band now), Holton, King and more.

Nothing compared! Not even close.

I have heard great things about the Taylor and Haagston, but haven't had the pleasure to play them.

Bruce Lee · 11-10-2003, 06:09 PM

Jeroen
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Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels
« Reply #9 on: 10/15/2003 at 12:33:49 »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Leigh,

You might want to check out the flugelhorns made by Hub Van Laar. A lot of the Dutch "fanfare" flugelhorn players really like his flugelhorns. A couple of USA studio musicians use his flugelhorns exclusively too.
He also makes very good B flat and C trumpets. I play one of his C's. You can contact Hub at http://www.hubvanlaar.com .

Best of luck, Jeroen.

11-10-2003, 05:59 PM	#1 (permalink)
Bruce Lee Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS Posts: 463	Your thoughts and input on the new flugels. eclipse Moderator member is offline Gender: Posts: 52 Your thoughts and input on the new flugels « Thread started on: 10/09/2003 at 16:51:40 » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We at Eclipse have always always enjoyed the input from the people who actually end up buying our products! We think this is an essential part of the development process for any instrument. Just to shock the people on here that do not already know, neither i or my partner John can play a single note ( and i do mean a single note) Well i think Bruce Lee heard my attempt over the phone once and had to reach for a large bottle of Prozac! The fact is we are 100% sure that it is this inability to play that has enabled us to make what we believe to be very good instruments. Why so? Because we do not have a personal preference of sound or feel ourselves. This i feel can be a distracting thing when making horns as you tend to naturally make a horn to sound the way YOU actually like it to sound, and not for the guys /girls out there! So what generally leaves the Eclipse Factory is an instrument that has evolved over the development period from the likes and dislikes of hundreds of trumpet players from all backgrounds of trumpet playing. Of course this does not mean to say that we do not know what we like to hear come out of the bell, we both have our own particular favourite horns in the range. And as for experience, well we have over 45 years of collective knowledge in this Trade. We are developing our flugel horn and hope to launch it at the ITG in Denver next year! I would like if you have 5 mins to melt your brains a little and ask just what it is you would like to have a flugel sound like! and also how you'd like it to feel in your hands(position of things etc etc I know one thing, and that is you cannot please everyone, but we do like to try and please a lot! We are very lucky to have Henry Lowther and Noel Langley play testing at every stage of the build process, and i am sure that we will have the benefit of Mr Kenny Wheelers input also. Best Wishes Leigh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- www.eclipsetrumpets.com

11-10-2003, 06:00 PM	#2 (permalink)
Bruce Lee Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS Posts: 463	BruceLee New Member member is offline Gender: Posts: 40 Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels « Reply #1 on: 10/10/2003 at 14:49:19 » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leigh, Thankfully, Noel and Henry erased that memory for me, very nicely! As long as you and John don't decide to treat me with a duet one day, all will be well. Regarding a Flugel, I'll kick this off: Most players, almost across the board, want a dark sound on the flugel. The bell shape, and design of the flugelhorn characteristically give that sound, when matched with the right mouthpiece. Sometimes it's easier to tell someone what you don't want, rather than what you want. I feel that copper bell, or red/or rose brass bells are overkill, when it comes to materials. The flugelhorn still needs to project, particularly in a Brass Band situation. I was unfamiliar with Brass Band instrumentation until I heard the Georgia Brass Band, at a recent Trumpetfest, in Atlanta. There is only "one" player on Flugelhorn, in a "traditional" Brass Band. That kind of took me by surprise. Our flugelhorn sound "concept" is developed from artists that we have listened to. There seems to be a tremendous array of "acceptable" commercial sounds. At the risk of sounding patronizing, I like Chuck Mangione's sound. He was the Jazz Ensemble Director at Eastman, when I was there. He has a clarity of sound that is pleasing to my ears. It's not what I would call a dark sound, but his sound certainly doesn't get lost in the "mix". I do like the vertical slide versions of Flugel much better than the "trumpet wrap" versions. Hope that this helps! Bruce
	__________________ brucelee@northernbrass.com ECLIPSE TRUMPETS - AUTHORIZED DEALER The "TEATRO", by Lee/McKinney GR Technologies/Northern Brass Mpc's - Dealer http://www.northernbrass.com (281) 485-1919

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11-10-2003, 06:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
Bruce Lee Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS Posts: 463	Trptmaster Administrator member is offline Posts: 336 Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels « Reply #2 on: 10/10/2003 at 15:02:24 » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know you guys would want to be original but I have heard really nice things about the Conn Vintage One Flugel. Maybe check that out and see what they did right and improve on it. Just a suggestion. Also Vertical slides would be a must for me. In Peace, TM

11-10-2003, 06:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
Bruce Lee Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS Posts: 463	romey1 Full Member member is offline Posts: 114 Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels « Reply #3 on: 10/10/2003 at 15:11:33 » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with Trpt-master. The Conn Vintage One seems to be the new "standard" in flugelhorn excellence. I've heard of many people selling their Kanstuls, and Shew Models for them. I have played several and they seem to be very consistent - easy to play (especially in the high register) and more importantly the sound is fantastic. If I had some extra money I would "throw down" for one, but I have other priorities at the moment. romey -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a Bach Sound - Don't Let Anyone Tell you Different!

11-10-2003, 06:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
Bruce Lee Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS Posts: 463	eclipse Moderator member is offline Gender: Posts: 52 Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels « Reply #4 on: 10/10/2003 at 15:20:02 » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Bruce But you have hurt my feelings now! Do you mean to say that you didnt enjoy hearing me play? I'm shocked! hahaha Well you are a trumpet teacher and also an Eclipse dealer so maybe i should get some free lessons and tips? As for the flugel, well fortunately you will be spoilt as we are actually looking to make both a vertical and horizontal slide model. The feedback from the guys over this side of the water so far has been that they like a slightly dark sound to the flugel but as you pointed out not overly dark. However with the change in bell materials we hope we can achieve the type of sound for all needs, but of course there will always be the main models. I wonder if the sound preference does in fact differ generally in the UK to that of our friends over the pond? Regards Leigh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- www.eclipsetrumpets.com

11-10-2003, 06:04 PM	#6 (permalink)
Bruce Lee Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS Posts: 463	brj New Member member is offline Posts: 8 Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels « Reply #5 on: 10/11/2003 at 02:41:47 » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Leigh Although it is a doublers instrument for me I've owned a good few flugels. Everyone I've had I liked, but never really loved. I've merely owned and traded on when some dealer has had a killer deal for what ever I was playing at the time plus a small amount of cash. I can say without hesitation that the best flugel I've played is the Taylor. In the mid £2K for a doubling instrument is a big step though. all the best Brian Jones

11-10-2003, 06:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
Bruce Lee Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS Posts: 463	camelbrass New Member member is offline Gender: Posts: 19 Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels « Reply #6 on: 10/11/2003 at 04:06:09 » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, Just my .02c. I much prefer the smaller bore horns 410/420 ish...the sound is more delicate. As a compromise maybe 433 ish like the Yamaha or Lawler. The trumpet bore flugels sound boomy to me. Regards Trevor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Taylor Chicago II Standard Kanstul Chicago MLP Kanstul Flugel ZKF 1525

11-10-2003, 06:06 PM	#8 (permalink)
Bruce Lee Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS Posts: 463	Horn of Praise New Member member is offline Posts: 23 Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels « Reply #7 on: 10/12/2003 at 21:53:33 » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Leigh, 1) Can you put the bell assembly on the other side of the valve cluster so the player's right hand and fingers don't have to reach over the bell assembly to finger the valves? 2) The fluegel sound should be dark, silky and buttery (copper or red brass). The dedicated forums, for different makes of horns, are a "great" idea. All the best. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PAUL NELSON Eclipse White Lightning Getzen Eterna 900 Classic Monette B4LD

11-10-2003, 06:08 PM	#9 (permalink)
Bruce Lee Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS Posts: 463	horndevil New Member member is offline Gender: Posts: 2 Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels « Reply #8 on: 10/15/2003 at 12:21:18 » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to agree with the other voices for the Conn V1. It simply blows most other Flugels out of the water. I play tested a heap, including Yamaha's, Bach, Challenger II"brochon",Courtois (seems to be standard in the UK brass band now), Holton, King and more. Nothing compared! Not even close. I have heard great things about the Taylor and Haagston, but haven't had the pleasure to play them.

11-10-2003, 06:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
Bruce Lee Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS Posts: 463	Jeroen New Member member is offline Gender: Posts: 20 Re: Your thoughts and input on the new flugels « Reply #9 on: 10/15/2003 at 12:33:49 » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Leigh, You might want to check out the flugelhorns made by Hub Van Laar. A lot of the Dutch "fanfare" flugelhorn players really like his flugelhorns. A couple of USA studio musicians use his flugelhorns exclusively too. He also makes very good B flat and C trumpets. I play one of his C's. You can contact Hub at http://www.hubvanlaar.com . Best of luck, Jeroen.

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