Besson Cornet models - Page 2

ChopsGone · 06-23-2009, 06:55 PM

By the way, one of the most prized cornets is the Sovereign - specifically the ones with the round model stamp on the bell. Among recent ones, the BE-928 is a pretty good horn. Both are more fitted for BBB usage, though.

Mr. G · 06-24-2009, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornet1

OK,

For practical reasons it would be best to forget the 'real' Besson models made up to the time that Besson was 'untimely murd'red' in 1975. The only real contender from that era is the '10-10', (which was the forerunner of the incredible 'International' probably the best soloists cornet ever made by any maker) and which will offer the playability of modern top models. You might be licky to get one at a good price if you look for long enough.

After B&H got into financial and union difficulties in the mid 80's they dug up the 'Besson' brand and attached it to their own brass in an exploitive and cynical attempt to persuade the British Brass Band Movement of their capability. Instruments from this era offer several models which may be suitable,.."Besson" 600, 700 and others all are excellent players, and being mid range will be within your price range.

Current B&H(Besson) production offers several mid range models,...also the 'Indian Besson', the 1000 series is a first class cornet for serious cornet players and is very well priced.

Thanks Cornet1 - helpful advice. The "International" is one that I've heard of. I think I misspoke in my earlier post when I said "Imperial" which is actually a B&H horn right?

Any specific reason to avoid a real Besson other than the 10-10 or International? The purest in me thinks that if I'm going to get a Besson, it should be a real one :) What's the trouble with them?

Also, what is the "Indian Besson" and the 1000 series? I found a BE1020 which is a student model. Is that what you're talking about, or are there others that are better than a student model? The 600 and 700 - are those student models as well? I am willing to spend more than $500 so I can get a nice horn. I think I'd rather spend a little more and get a used more pro-line instrument, even if it's 20-30 years old and good shape (is there a model that fits the bill there?) than something newer. Make sense?

Thanks!

Mr. G · 06-24-2009, 12:01 AM

As I've started to check out the specs of these horns, I've been surprised at how big the bores on a lot of the newer Bessons are. When I started looking for a cornet, it was with the intent of being able to use it for the Arban/Clarke type cornet solos and things of that nature. So I really wanted to avoid the many cornets that are out there that tend to sound and play like hybrid trumpet/cornets. That's what got me started looking at both older horns in general as well as all of the Bessons. It seems like the older cornets generally started with smaller bores, but even by the turn of the century, there was A LOT of variation in design/bore size/etc. and maybe even a lot of variation in what people thought a cornet should be anyway (kind of like today, isn't it!). So as the Besson cornets have evolved with the British Brass Bands, getting larger bores, has the sound concept changed much? Or did the evolution really just help the playability of the instruments. So I guess I'm saying that I'm not tied to any certain set up, as long as it gives me the characteristics of a cornet and not a trumpet

I'm hoping that some of you British players who have some experience playing these various horns can shed some light on this for me since, unfortunately, I don't have access to a whole bunch of these horns to play myself. Most of the Bessons that I'm able to find used are coming from the UK, so I don't want to have to ship too many over here to try out! Also, if you think I'm barking up the wrong tree by looking at Bessons, that's a fair opinion to share too.

Cornet1 · 06-24-2009, 05:31 AM

Contrary to what many people in the US believe, British band playing has changed substantially in the last 50 years. All of the instruments (while remaining the same types) have changed greatly during my lifetime in bands, with the sole exception of the tenor horn.

As regards cornets, you can plot modern cornet development in three stages;......the old type Besson 'prototype' as used from about 1875,..this has a small bore, a 'sweet' tone and small voice. Physically, it was of elegant layout with a detachable shank between mpc and leadpipe that allowed key change, although this was never used in brass bands and was a historical 'leftover' from previous instruments such as the cornopean. All of these cornets were made in 'high pitch' until British military bands changed to low (orchestral) pitch in 1930 after which there was dual production until brass bands finally changed in circa 1960 (bye which time we had moved on to stage two)

The second stage instruments arrived in the late 50's as brass bands moved away from their Victorian influences and tackled more modern music and the trend to 'art' test pieces in the more important contests. These cornets can be considered as 'transitional' models and were larger, phisically and in bore, and had greater sound projection with slightly less sweetness. Most of these models did away with the shank and most were now in low pitch. Typical of these was the Besson 'New Standard' model and B&H's later 'Imperial' (actually frequently made in the Besson factory) At the end of WWII B&H aquired the Besson Company and although the two factories remained largly independant for the next 30 years, this was to ultimately end the unique besson models.

The third, or current, stage started in the late 50's when Besson designers foresaw th rapid social changes taking place in the UK and realised that this would alter bands for ever. With this (correctly) in mind they embarked on what we now recognise as the modern cornet with the Besson 10-10 and then in 1965, the 'International'. These are large(ish) bore instruments with powerful projection coupled with great freedom of playing flexibility and expression. Slide triggers are fitted for instant intonation adjustment. With these cornets, bands were able to tackle the vast range of modern music which they now do, from big band and jazz to technically demanding test pieces, to traditional repertoire and much more. These cornets are far from the old 'prototype' now known as 'peashooters' by bandsmen, and rather than the single sweet quaint tone they have a fully flexible sound envelope and tonal palette.

The newest Bessons are now at least 35 years old. For the great models such as the 'International' there is a fast under the table trade among bands and the prices are rising steeply. Any instruments that reach Ebay tend to be well used and showing their age.

If you are a reasonably good player and really want to explore top end cornet playing or BBB, then the best way to go by far is to look for a B&H 'Sovereign' or one of the later renamed 'Besson' Sovs. The early B&H model (round stamp engraving) is sought after but should be there if you look hard enough for around 600 USD. These cornets can be expertly rebuilt by 'Eclipse' for £300 if you wished.

If ytou don't want to 'go the whole hog' then, as I suggested, a mid range instrument from the 1990's will give you a very good idea what British cornets are about.

An even quicker way to 'cut to the kill' is the Besson 1020 which although very inexpensive, is a cornet that punches out of it's weight and may well be the last true B&H/Besson to be made.

tutin_trumpeta · 06-24-2009, 07:10 AM

I play a 'Besson' Soveriegn that I bought brand new 15 years ago. I, personally, don't like it now but that's just my personal preference - I like the Yamaha Xeno. From my personal experience they are good cornets and play well. IMO they aren't as free-blowing as the Xeno but each to their own. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them. As I said, it's a preference thing and my preference is with the Xeno.

Hope your search goes well.

Nick

Mr. G · 06-25-2009, 06:35 PM

Thanks Cornet1 for the interesting history and information. That helps a lot. There are a ton of sovs on ebay, although all Bessons at the moment. Based on your previous post, I assume that to at least get me started, it shouldn't matter whether I find a Besson or B&H Sov, or when it was made if it was in the last 30 years or so. Condition/price/etc. will be more of a factor.

I really appreciate all of the help everyone! Now I feel like I know which horns to start play testing myself.

ChopsGone · 06-26-2009, 12:18 PM

Mr. G - since you're in the US, don't forget to log into the eBay UK site as well as the US one. You'll find a lot better selection of the instruments you're seeking there. You'll need to allow a couple of days of extra time in the bidding process, as many UK sellers will ship to the US if asked, but do not list their items that way. You'll occasionally have to ask them to open the bidding to non-UK buyers - a quick process for them, but because of the time zone differences, it could cost you a day. And of course, shipping charges will give you a rude explanation of how the royal family manages to live so well. RM small packets service is generally the better way to go. But the best selection of BBB cornets is found on the UK site.

Mr. G · 06-26-2009, 01:35 PM

Thanks ChopsGone! I have been checking the UK site (there's virtually nothing of this type of cornet on the US site), but that's good to know about how to approach the bidding process, since I've never made an overseas ebay purchase.

Thanks!

KRax! · 06-28-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornet1

As regards cornets, you can plot modern cornet development in three stages;......the old type Besson 'prototype' as used from about 1875,..this has a small bore, a 'sweet' tone and small voice. Physically, it was of elegant layout with a detachable shank between mpc and leadpipe that allowed key change, although this was never used in brass bands and was a historical 'leftover' from previous instruments such as the cornopean. All of these cornets were made in 'high pitch' until British military bands changed to low (orchestral) pitch in 1930 after which there was dual production until brass bands finally changed in circa 1960 (bye which time we had moved on to stage two)

Just for the note, these early Besson cornets were also made as "low pitch" models, for the American market. Dillons have a bunch of them. These US models are stamped "Carl Fisher, sole US importer" and do not necessarly use detachable shanks, but "normal" leadpipes.

I had one for a short while, from about 1910, and as cornet1 says, their sound is really sweet, but not so powerful. Great intonation, at least mine.

MFfan · 06-28-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KRax!

Just for the note, these early Besson cornets were also made as "low pitch" models, for the American market. Dillons have a bunch of them. These US models are stamped "Carl Fisher, sole US importer" and do not necessarly use detachable shanks, but "normal" leadpipes.

I had one for a short while, from about 1910, and as cornet1 says, their sound is really sweet, but not so powerful. Great intonation, at least mine.

Thanks KRax, very interesting. The Besson lore is gradually accumulating. Now if it could be organized and preserved..............

06-23-2009, 06:55 PM	#11
ChopsGone Piano User Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 405	Re: Besson Cornet models By the way, one of the most prized cornets is the Sovereign - specifically the ones with the round model stamp on the bell. Among recent ones, the BE-928 is a pretty good horn. Both are more fitted for BBB usage, though. __________________ Vintage Olds and Reynolds, yes sir, yes sir, one gazoo full. Calicchios, Besson, Kanstul Bessons, Selmers, etc. F.E. forgive me, even a Bach Strad (but I like the others much better)

06-24-2009, 12:01 AM	#13
Mr. G New Friend Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14	Re: Besson Cornet models As I've started to check out the specs of these horns, I've been surprised at how big the bores on a lot of the newer Bessons are. When I started looking for a cornet, it was with the intent of being able to use it for the Arban/Clarke type cornet solos and things of that nature. So I really wanted to avoid the many cornets that are out there that tend to sound and play like hybrid trumpet/cornets. That's what got me started looking at both older horns in general as well as all of the Bessons. It seems like the older cornets generally started with smaller bores, but even by the turn of the century, there was A LOT of variation in design/bore size/etc. and maybe even a lot of variation in what people thought a cornet should be anyway (kind of like today, isn't it!). So as the Besson cornets have evolved with the British Brass Bands, getting larger bores, has the sound concept changed much? Or did the evolution really just help the playability of the instruments. So I guess I'm saying that I'm not tied to any certain set up, as long as it gives me the characteristics of a cornet and not a trumpet I'm hoping that some of you British players who have some experience playing these various horns can shed some light on this for me since, unfortunately, I don't have access to a whole bunch of these horns to play myself. Most of the Bessons that I'm able to find used are coming from the UK, so I don't want to have to ship too many over here to try out! Also, if you think I'm barking up the wrong tree by looking at Bessons, that's a fair opinion to share too.

06-24-2009, 05:31 AM	#14
Cornet1 Pianissimo User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Essex, England Posts: 210	Re: Besson Cornet models Contrary to what many people in the US believe, British band playing has changed substantially in the last 50 years. All of the instruments (while remaining the same types) have changed greatly during my lifetime in bands, with the sole exception of the tenor horn. As regards cornets, you can plot modern cornet development in three stages;......the old type Besson 'prototype' as used from about 1875,..this has a small bore, a 'sweet' tone and small voice. Physically, it was of elegant layout with a detachable shank between mpc and leadpipe that allowed key change, although this was never used in brass bands and was a historical 'leftover' from previous instruments such as the cornopean. All of these cornets were made in 'high pitch' until British military bands changed to low (orchestral) pitch in 1930 after which there was dual production until brass bands finally changed in circa 1960 (bye which time we had moved on to stage two) The second stage instruments arrived in the late 50's as brass bands moved away from their Victorian influences and tackled more modern music and the trend to 'art' test pieces in the more important contests. These cornets can be considered as 'transitional' models and were larger, phisically and in bore, and had greater sound projection with slightly less sweetness. Most of these models did away with the shank and most were now in low pitch. Typical of these was the Besson 'New Standard' model and B&H's later 'Imperial' (actually frequently made in the Besson factory) At the end of WWII B&H aquired the Besson Company and although the two factories remained largly independant for the next 30 years, this was to ultimately end the unique besson models. The third, or current, stage started in the late 50's when Besson designers foresaw th rapid social changes taking place in the UK and realised that this would alter bands for ever. With this (correctly) in mind they embarked on what we now recognise as the modern cornet with the Besson 10-10 and then in 1965, the 'International'. These are large(ish) bore instruments with powerful projection coupled with great freedom of playing flexibility and expression. Slide triggers are fitted for instant intonation adjustment. With these cornets, bands were able to tackle the vast range of modern music which they now do, from big band and jazz to technically demanding test pieces, to traditional repertoire and much more. These cornets are far from the old 'prototype' now known as 'peashooters' by bandsmen, and rather than the single sweet quaint tone they have a fully flexible sound envelope and tonal palette. The newest Bessons are now at least 35 years old. For the great models such as the 'International' there is a fast under the table trade among bands and the prices are rising steeply. Any instruments that reach Ebay tend to be well used and showing their age. If you are a reasonably good player and really want to explore top end cornet playing or BBB, then the best way to go by far is to look for a B&H 'Sovereign' or one of the later renamed 'Besson' Sovs. The early B&H model (round stamp engraving) is sought after but should be there if you look hard enough for around 600 USD. These cornets can be expertly rebuilt by 'Eclipse' for £300 if you wished. If ytou don't want to 'go the whole hog' then, as I suggested, a mid range instrument from the 1990's will give you a very good idea what British cornets are about. An even quicker way to 'cut to the kill' is the Besson 1020 which although very inexpensive, is a cornet that punches out of it's weight and may well be the last true B&H/Besson to be made. Last edited by Cornet1; 06-24-2009 at 05:57 AM.

06-24-2009, 07:10 AM	#15
tutin_trumpeta Pianissimo User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Hertfordshire, UK Posts: 115	Re: Besson Cornet models I play a 'Besson' Soveriegn that I bought brand new 15 years ago. I, personally, don't like it now but that's just my personal preference - I like the Yamaha Xeno. From my personal experience they are good cornets and play well. IMO they aren't as free-blowing as the Xeno but each to their own. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them. As I said, it's a preference thing and my preference is with the Xeno. Hope your search goes well. Nick __________________ Nick Jolly Life is something like a trumpet. If you don't put anything in, you won't get anything out. - William Christopher Handy Yamaha YTR636 Bb Trumpet Olds Recording Bb Trumpet Olds Studio Bb Trumpet Besson Sovereign Bb Cornet Elkhart Flugel

06-25-2009, 06:35 PM	#16
Mr. G New Friend Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14	Re: Besson Cornet models Thanks Cornet1 for the interesting history and information. That helps a lot. There are a ton of sovs on ebay, although all Bessons at the moment. Based on your previous post, I assume that to at least get me started, it shouldn't matter whether I find a Besson or B&H Sov, or when it was made if it was in the last 30 years or so. Condition/price/etc. will be more of a factor. I really appreciate all of the help everyone! Now I feel like I know which horns to start play testing myself.

06-26-2009, 12:18 PM	#17
ChopsGone Piano User Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 405	Re: Besson Cornet models Mr. G - since you're in the US, don't forget to log into the eBay UK site as well as the US one. You'll find a lot better selection of the instruments you're seeking there. You'll need to allow a couple of days of extra time in the bidding process, as many UK sellers will ship to the US if asked, but do not list their items that way. You'll occasionally have to ask them to open the bidding to non-UK buyers - a quick process for them, but because of the time zone differences, it could cost you a day. And of course, shipping charges will give you a rude explanation of how the royal family manages to live so well. RM small packets service is generally the better way to go. But the best selection of BBB cornets is found on the UK site. __________________ Vintage Olds and Reynolds, yes sir, yes sir, one gazoo full. Calicchios, Besson, Kanstul Bessons, Selmers, etc. F.E. forgive me, even a Bach Strad (but I like the others much better)

06-26-2009, 01:35 PM	#18
Mr. G New Friend Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14	Re: Besson Cornet models Thanks ChopsGone! I have been checking the UK site (there's virtually nothing of this type of cornet on the US site), but that's good to know about how to approach the bidding process, since I've never made an overseas ebay purchase. Thanks!

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