Besson Cornet models

Mr. G · 06-22-2009, 11:32 PM

Hi everyone,

It appears that there are at least a couple of real experts on this site when it comes to Besson cornets - I hope you'll be willing to lend me a hand!

I'm in the market for a used cornet. I'd like a short/shepherd's crook model, and am looking for a more traditional (not "trumpetty") cornet sound. I know the mpc is an important component of this, so I would definitely look for deeper "v" style to fit the horn.

As I've been researching, I've grown really curious about the Besson cornets, but there are so many models (especially as you look at older used instruments) and I can't seem to find anyplace on the web that lays out when different models were made and what specs they had.

I want to buy a cornet that I can play, so I understand the problems with instruments that are too old and are built in high pitch (although they do look cool!).

Maybe some of you Besson experts can help me put a timeline on when various models of Bessons were made, as well as point me in the direction of which of those models are likely to play well. Also, is there any easy way to at least guess if a horn is in high pitch from a picture if the "hp" stamp doesn't show up clearly on pics of the bell? I get the impression that many people selling these horns on ebay and the like might not know what I'm even asking about!

Thanks so much for any help you can provide!!

Mr. G

MFfan · 06-23-2009, 12:23 AM

Well, I don't know if I am a Besson expert or not,but will try to help.
Manufacturers

Here is a portion of the fine document, cornet compendium, about the development of 19th Century cornets and the Besson paragraph is interesting.

I would access Horn-u-copia and search thru the Besson section under "manufacturers'". I am not sure is you have to register or not. I am Hornman64 on that site.

You also might search the archived threads for Besson discussions. Of course with such a long history and without a comprehensive chronological history available, you kind of have to piece together clues. There are many cornets pictured on HUC, some with serials and clues to their models. I know they made the Prototype model for a number of years. I have a couple of my horns on HUC, but are American models. My 48 Cornet has LP stamped on the bell.
I believe some high pitches were made in the UK up till the sixties.

On 70-100 yr old horns I would treat them as high pitch unless proven otherwise, or they have accessory shanks to change the pitch.

www.vintagecornets.com Here is Nick DiCarlis' fine cornet site which might help you out.

Maybe some of our UK members will chime in as you sound like you are interested in brass band type of Besson's. I don't have any experience in playing the really old ones, but they have been discussed in many old threads.

Mr. G · 06-23-2009, 01:01 AM

Thanks MFfan for responding!

I've checked both cornet compendium and registered at Horn-u-copia so I could look around that site - both are great! I also have read a lot of the archived threads here and on TH. But as I get more info (I started with only a little) I keep winding up with more questions then answers.

I've run across references to several models - Prototype, Chicago Bore, 10-10, Imperial, and then the Prestige and Sovereign that are made now. I know there are more, but I can't seem to find much about the general specs/playing characteristics of each of these models. I'm also trying to find out which ones are respected and which might be less good (or even duds if there are any). I also think I read that there's an older Imperial which is supposed to be a great horn and a newer one that's, if not a worse horn, at least different in its playing characteristics.

I don't know of any way that I can play several of these myself, so to at least get me started, I'm hoping to rely on some of you who have experience with these horns. If there's an older used one that plays well, that will probably fit my budget best. I also use the term "older" without reference to any particular time. I'm looking for something to play, and any info people have about various models will help me know what to look for.

Thanks so much!

MFfan · 06-23-2009, 09:21 AM

Glad to help. Any investigation of Besson's always leaves me scratching my head! There is a representation of a Besson catalog ,1958, in HUC
http://www.horn-u-copia.net/books/Besson%201958.pdf

The 10-10 is the pro model, not interchangeable with the rest. The 8-10 is the intermediate. I have a trumpet and it is a fine player, and used to have an 8-10 cornet. 10-10 cornets rarely show up on ebay.

Hope you hear from from some other members. Of course, an old horn can be complicated by condition issues.

Cornet1 · 06-23-2009, 11:38 AM

I think the right cornet would depend on;

Where you are,..in US or elsewhere.

What you want to use it for....and how experienced a player you are.

How much you want to spend...and whether you are concerned to keep the value of your investment.

Mr. G · 06-23-2009, 02:30 PM

I'm in the US. I'm an experienced player - I do some professional gigs around town, but make my living teaching high school band. I'll be using this cornet mostly at home for now, just because I'm interested in having one to play. I have my Bach strad that works with the groups I play in. I'm not worried so much about investment value as much as how the horn plays for me. As for price, it seems like there are some used bessons going for under $500, which is why I'm trying to get a handle on which horns play well. It would be great if I could spend less than $500. I know the newer Prestiges and Sovereigns are going for more than that, even used. I'm in the gathering information stage so I can try to make some decisions. I hope that helps. Thanks for any info!

Mr. G · 06-23-2009, 02:40 PM

MFfan

Thanks for pointing me to that catalog. I had only checked through the forums. I'll check that catalog out and see if I can get some more info from that. Do they have catalogs from other years when there were other models too? Thanks!

Cornet1 · 06-23-2009, 02:52 PM

OK,

For practical reasons it would be best to forget the 'real' Besson models made up to the time that Besson was 'untimely murd'red' in 1975. The only real contender from that era is the '10-10', (which was the forerunner of the incredible 'International' probably the best soloists cornet ever made by any maker) and which will offer the playability of modern top models. You might be licky to get one at a good price if you look for long enough.

After B&H got into financial and union difficulties in the mid 80's they dug up the 'Besson' brand and attached it to their own brass in an exploitive and cynical attempt to persuade the British Brass Band Movement of their capability. Instruments from this era offer several models which may be suitable,.."Besson" 600, 700 and others all are excellent players, and being mid range will be within your price range.

Current B&H(Besson) production offers several mid range models,...also the 'Indian Besson', the 1000 series is a first class cornet for serious cornet players and is very well priced.

MFfan · 06-23-2009, 03:00 PM

Used Cornets

Here is the page of used Besson's at Dillon, probably each would play well, but all look over your budget. You didn't indicate where you live, but trying out these horns would probably be the best measure of what would work for you, rather that relying on someone else's opinion. Myself, I would feel comfortable getting another model like I have, an 8-10 or 2-20 (basically the same) and sure couldn't afford the odd 10-10. A major concern is the condition of the pistons and accessories. No spares are available unless you cannablise another and the plastic guides may be worn.

rbdeli · 06-23-2009, 06:41 PM

While, we're on the subject of French Besson Cornet's, I wonder if anyone knows how valuable this one is?

1882 French Besson Cornet

06-22-2009, 11:32 PM	#1
Mr. G New Friend Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14	Besson Cornet models Hi everyone, It appears that there are at least a couple of real experts on this site when it comes to Besson cornets - I hope you'll be willing to lend me a hand! I'm in the market for a used cornet. I'd like a short/shepherd's crook model, and am looking for a more traditional (not "trumpetty") cornet sound. I know the mpc is an important component of this, so I would definitely look for deeper "v" style to fit the horn. As I've been researching, I've grown really curious about the Besson cornets, but there are so many models (especially as you look at older used instruments) and I can't seem to find anyplace on the web that lays out when different models were made and what specs they had. I want to buy a cornet that I can play, so I understand the problems with instruments that are too old and are built in high pitch (although they do look cool!). Maybe some of you Besson experts can help me put a timeline on when various models of Bessons were made, as well as point me in the direction of which of those models are likely to play well. Also, is there any easy way to at least guess if a horn is in high pitch from a picture if the "hp" stamp doesn't show up clearly on pics of the bell? I get the impression that many people selling these horns on ebay and the like might not know what I'm even asking about! Thanks so much for any help you can provide!! Mr. G

06-23-2009, 12:23 AM	#2
MFfan Forte User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan Posts: 1,671	Re: Besson Cornet models Well, I don't know if I am a Besson expert or not,but will try to help. Manufacturers Here is a portion of the fine document, cornet compendium, about the development of 19th Century cornets and the Besson paragraph is interesting. I would access Horn-u-copia and search thru the Besson section under "manufacturers'". I am not sure is you have to register or not. I am Hornman64 on that site. You also might search the archived threads for Besson discussions. Of course with such a long history and without a comprehensive chronological history available, you kind of have to piece together clues. There are many cornets pictured on HUC, some with serials and clues to their models. I know they made the Prototype model for a number of years. I have a couple of my horns on HUC, but are American models. My 48 Cornet has LP stamped on the bell. I believe some high pitches were made in the UK up till the sixties. On 70-100 yr old horns I would treat them as high pitch unless proven otherwise, or they have accessory shanks to change the pitch. www.vintagecornets.com Here is Nick DiCarlis' fine cornet site which might help you out. Maybe some of our UK members will chime in as you sound like you are interested in brass band type of Besson's. I don't have any experience in playing the really old ones, but they have been discussed in many old threads. __________________ Dave Rafferty Lemar Trumpet (peashooter-Conn?) Lyrical Trumpet (Tokan) Besson 609 Trumpet 1955-60 Besson 8-10 Trumpet 1948 Besson cornet 1946 King Master Cornet www.kalamazooconcertband.org

06-23-2009, 01:01 AM	#3
Mr. G New Friend Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14	Re: Besson Cornet models Thanks MFfan for responding! I've checked both cornet compendium and registered at Horn-u-copia so I could look around that site - both are great! I also have read a lot of the archived threads here and on TH. But as I get more info (I started with only a little) I keep winding up with more questions then answers. I've run across references to several models - Prototype, Chicago Bore, 10-10, Imperial, and then the Prestige and Sovereign that are made now. I know there are more, but I can't seem to find much about the general specs/playing characteristics of each of these models. I'm also trying to find out which ones are respected and which might be less good (or even duds if there are any). I also think I read that there's an older Imperial which is supposed to be a great horn and a newer one that's, if not a worse horn, at least different in its playing characteristics. I don't know of any way that I can play several of these myself, so to at least get me started, I'm hoping to rely on some of you who have experience with these horns. If there's an older used one that plays well, that will probably fit my budget best. I also use the term "older" without reference to any particular time. I'm looking for something to play, and any info people have about various models will help me know what to look for. Thanks so much!

06-23-2009, 09:21 AM	#4
MFfan Forte User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan Posts: 1,671	Re: Besson Cornet models Glad to help. Any investigation of Besson's always leaves me scratching my head! There is a representation of a Besson catalog ,1958, in HUC http://www.horn-u-copia.net/books/Besson%201958.pdf The 10-10 is the pro model, not interchangeable with the rest. The 8-10 is the intermediate. I have a trumpet and it is a fine player, and used to have an 8-10 cornet. 10-10 cornets rarely show up on ebay. Hope you hear from from some other members. Of course, an old horn can be complicated by condition issues. __________________ Dave Rafferty Lemar Trumpet (peashooter-Conn?) Lyrical Trumpet (Tokan) Besson 609 Trumpet 1955-60 Besson 8-10 Trumpet 1948 Besson cornet 1946 King Master Cornet www.kalamazooconcertband.org

06-23-2009, 11:38 AM	#5
Cornet1 Pianissimo User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Essex, England Posts: 210	Re: Besson Cornet models I think the right cornet would depend on; Where you are,..in US or elsewhere. What you want to use it for....and how experienced a player you are. How much you want to spend...and whether you are concerned to keep the value of your investment.

06-23-2009, 02:30 PM	#6
Mr. G New Friend Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14	Re: Besson Cornet models I'm in the US. I'm an experienced player - I do some professional gigs around town, but make my living teaching high school band. I'll be using this cornet mostly at home for now, just because I'm interested in having one to play. I have my Bach strad that works with the groups I play in. I'm not worried so much about investment value as much as how the horn plays for me. As for price, it seems like there are some used bessons going for under $500, which is why I'm trying to get a handle on which horns play well. It would be great if I could spend less than $500. I know the newer Prestiges and Sovereigns are going for more than that, even used. I'm in the gathering information stage so I can try to make some decisions. I hope that helps. Thanks for any info!

06-23-2009, 02:40 PM	#7
Mr. G New Friend Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14	Re: Besson Cornet models MFfan Thanks for pointing me to that catalog. I had only checked through the forums. I'll check that catalog out and see if I can get some more info from that. Do they have catalogs from other years when there were other models too? Thanks!

06-23-2009, 02:52 PM	#8
Cornet1 Pianissimo User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Essex, England Posts: 210	Re: Besson Cornet models OK, For practical reasons it would be best to forget the 'real' Besson models made up to the time that Besson was 'untimely murd'red' in 1975. The only real contender from that era is the '10-10', (which was the forerunner of the incredible 'International' probably the best soloists cornet ever made by any maker) and which will offer the playability of modern top models. You might be licky to get one at a good price if you look for long enough. After B&H got into financial and union difficulties in the mid 80's they dug up the 'Besson' brand and attached it to their own brass in an exploitive and cynical attempt to persuade the British Brass Band Movement of their capability. Instruments from this era offer several models which may be suitable,.."Besson" 600, 700 and others all are excellent players, and being mid range will be within your price range. Current B&H(Besson) production offers several mid range models,...also the 'Indian Besson', the 1000 series is a first class cornet for serious cornet players and is very well priced.

06-23-2009, 03:00 PM	#9
MFfan Forte User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan Posts: 1,671	Re: Besson Cornet models Used Cornets Here is the page of used Besson's at Dillon, probably each would play well, but all look over your budget. You didn't indicate where you live, but trying out these horns would probably be the best measure of what would work for you, rather that relying on someone else's opinion. Myself, I would feel comfortable getting another model like I have, an 8-10 or 2-20 (basically the same) and sure couldn't afford the odd 10-10. A major concern is the condition of the pistons and accessories. No spares are available unless you cannablise another and the plastic guides may be worn. __________________ Dave Rafferty Lemar Trumpet (peashooter-Conn?) Lyrical Trumpet (Tokan) Besson 609 Trumpet 1955-60 Besson 8-10 Trumpet 1948 Besson cornet 1946 King Master Cornet www.kalamazooconcertband.org

06-23-2009, 06:41 PM	#10
rbdeli Piano User Join Date: May 2009 Location: CO Posts: 377	Re: Besson Cornet models While, we're on the subject of French Besson Cornet's, I wonder if anyone knows how valuable this one is? 1882 French Besson Cornet __________________ Find your favorite Trumpet

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