Conn 22b New York Symphony model horn... intonation

nommo · 07-07-2009, 01:06 PM

I have a Conn 22b New York Symphony model horn. It doesn't play in tune well and some notes crack and are hard to control; like middle D concert: a note (normally) well within my range and control.

I had a friend look at the horn and HE said it's the valves & casings. There's very little corrosion and no major dents, so I dunno: Ay needz opiniunz!

Also: how much do you think it would cost to get the valves and possibly the casings replaced on a horn this old. Cheers

Nommo

Bob Grier · 07-07-2009, 01:08 PM

You don't replace them you have them rebuilt. Check out Osmun Brass's web site. The 22Bs I've played all have very good intonation. Wotn valves would play out of tune just as you describe.

VetPsychWars · 07-07-2009, 02:09 PM

The older horns without first-valve adjustments were built using a different philosophy. It may take you a while to get used to where the notes are on that horn.

Try pulling the tuning slide out a little further than you're used to, as well.

Tom

rowuk · 07-07-2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nommo

I have a Conn 22b New York Symphony model horn. It doesn't play in tune well and some notes crack and are hard to control; like middle D concert: a note (normally) well within my range and control.

I had a friend look at the horn and HE said it's the valves & casings. There's very little corrosion and no major dents, so I dunno: Ay needz opiniunz!

Also: how much do you think it would cost to get the valves and possibly the casings replaced on a horn this old. Cheers

Nommo

Your "friend" has no idea what he is talking about. Even very worn valves do not "destroy" the intonation of the horn.

Older horns had slightly longer first valve slides, meaning that those notes would be a bit flatter.

It is possible that the mouthpiece backbore and throat do not match the horn. You would need to try some other ones out. Even better, get somebody REAL GOOD to try the horn and make suggestions.

Forget replacing the valve casings. The valves can be plated. Get a tech in your area to check it out.

nommo · 07-08-2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowuk

Your "friend" has no idea what he is talking about. Even very worn valves do not "destroy" the intonation of the horn.

Older horns had slightly longer first valve slides, meaning that those notes would be a bit flatter.

It is possible that the mouthpiece backbore and throat do not match the horn. You would need to try some other ones out. Even better, get somebody REAL GOOD to try the horn and make suggestions.

Forget replacing the valve casings. The valves can be plated. Get a tech in your area to check it out.

Well. Thanks for your suggestion. Is there something idiomatic to those horns that alters; though not necessarily destroys intonation? Because I had no intonation problems on other horns. And other people using their mouthpieces on mine; have the same problems. Also another weird thing: This horns high Db concert is da** near unplayable. I can hit the D above it and the Eb too. But that 2nd position is way sharp.

Hey look I appreciate everyone's suggestions. Also let me know if YOU guys need anything. Together we can sort this out: and make the world a better place.

John Heckathorn · 07-08-2009, 01:12 PM

Greetings, I have a 1941 22B New York Symphony and experienced many of the same intonation issues you outlined in your first post. I got it professionally cleaned (not restored, mind you) the week after I obtained it, and worked it up after receiving it back. For that first week I had really bad intonation issues on it, along with rather sloppy tuning along the ranges. This was with my go to mouthpiece, a Curry 3C. I messed with different tunings, but had the same problems. Frustrated, I grabbed the 1940s Conn 4 piece that came with it and gave it a blow. To my surprise it played much smoother and with better intonation and feel. One must remember that these horns, depending on when yours was made are close to 70+ years old. They were built to different specs and tolerances than modern trumpets, the Conn 22Bs being a small .438" bore, compared to the more widely used ML .459" bore used today. Some modern mouthpieces have different or too large shank sizes and may contribute to the intonation issues, due to the poor fit in the receiver. Larger bore trumpets (ML, L) are largely something that has caught on in the last half century, being that the role of the trumpet in especially orchestras has evolved immensely from the first half of the twentieth century. These 22Bs are spectacular horns, but are different beasts than their modern counterparts.

-John

VetPsychWars · 07-08-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nommo

Also another weird thing: This horns high Db concert is da** near unplayable. I can hit the D above it and the Eb too. But that 2nd position is way sharp.

This is why I suggested pulling your tuning slide a little. I didn't just yank it out of my backside.

Tom

nommo · 10-30-2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Heckathorn

Greetings, I have a 1941 22B New York Symphony and experienced many of the same intonation issues you outlined in your first post. I got it professionally cleaned (not restored, mind you) the week after I obtained it, and worked it up after receiving it back. For that first week I had really bad intonation issues on it, along with rather sloppy tuning along the ranges. This was with my go to mouthpiece, a Curry 3C. I messed with different tunings, but had the same problems. Frustrated, I grabbed the 1940s Conn 4 piece that came with it and gave it a blow. To my surprise it played much smoother and with better intonation and feel. One must remember that these horns, depending on when yours was made are close to 70+ years old. They were built to different specs and tolerances than modern trumpets, the Conn 22Bs being a small .438" bore, compared to the more widely used ML .459" bore used today. Some modern mouthpieces have different or too large shank sizes and may contribute to the intonation issues, due to the poor fit in the receiver. Larger bore trumpets (ML, L) are largely something that has caught on in the last half century, being that the role of the trumpet in especially orchestras has evolved immensely from the first half of the twentieth century. These 22Bs are spectacular horns, but are different beasts than their modern counterparts.

-John

Thanks John. I think you nailed it on the head. I used a Conn mouthpiece on that horn and it was like a whole new instrument. I think it was my Yamaha 11B4 mouthpiece. I gotta go mouthpiece hunting. Thanks everyone for your input!

DivineWind · 10-31-2009, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VetPsychWars

This is why I suggested pulling your tuning slide a little. I didn't just yank it out of my backside.

Tom

Geeee, and I thought that was slide-grease.......

{Sorry.... Couldn't resist.}

missmybaby · 10-31-2009, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineWind

Geeee, and I thought that was slide-grease.......

{Sorry.... Couldn't resist.}

Nasty...

07-07-2009, 01:06 PM	#1
nommo New Friend Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5	Conn 22b New York Symphony model horn... intonation I have a Conn 22b New York Symphony model horn. It doesn't play in tune well and some notes crack and are hard to control; like middle D concert: a note (normally) well within my range and control. I had a friend look at the horn and HE said it's the valves & casings. There's very little corrosion and no major dents, so I dunno: Ay needz opiniunz! Also: how much do you think it would cost to get the valves and possibly the casings replaced on a horn this old. Cheers Nommo

07-07-2009, 01:08 PM	#2
Bob Grier Mezzo Forte User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 770	Re: Conn 22b New York Symphony model horn... intonation You don't replace them you have them rebuilt. Check out Osmun Brass's web site. The 22Bs I've played all have very good intonation. Wotn valves would play out of tune just as you describe. __________________ Bob Grier, An Old Pro Web Cam trumpet & jazz improvisation lessons bgrierjr@triad.rr.com Schilke B5 GB bell NY Bach ML 37GB Bb 1949 Benge 7X 1985 Conn 22B 1940s King Liberty Silversonic 1975 King Master Model Siversonic cornet 1975 1985 Bach C L 229GB 25A 1985 Bach D ML 239 1985 Bach Eb ML 239 1967 Martin C ML rose brass bell 1985 Selmer Paris Picc with Osmun A pipe & Blackburn Bb pipe 1975 Getzen Eterna Flugelhorn 1985 Yamaha YFH 635T Flugelhorn

07-07-2009, 02:09 PM	#3
VetPsychWars Piano User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Greenfield WI Posts: 332	Re: Conn 22b New York Symphony model horn... intonation The older horns without first-valve adjustments were built using a different philosophy. It may take you a while to get used to where the notes are on that horn. Try pulling the tuning slide out a little further than you're used to, as well. Tom

07-08-2009, 01:12 PM	#6
John Heckathorn New Friend Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 22	Re: Conn 22b New York Symphony model horn... intonation Greetings, I have a 1941 22B New York Symphony and experienced many of the same intonation issues you outlined in your first post. I got it professionally cleaned (not restored, mind you) the week after I obtained it, and worked it up after receiving it back. For that first week I had really bad intonation issues on it, along with rather sloppy tuning along the ranges. This was with my go to mouthpiece, a Curry 3C. I messed with different tunings, but had the same problems. Frustrated, I grabbed the 1940s Conn 4 piece that came with it and gave it a blow. To my surprise it played much smoother and with better intonation and feel. One must remember that these horns, depending on when yours was made are close to 70+ years old. They were built to different specs and tolerances than modern trumpets, the Conn 22Bs being a small .438" bore, compared to the more widely used ML .459" bore used today. Some modern mouthpieces have different or too large shank sizes and may contribute to the intonation issues, due to the poor fit in the receiver. Larger bore trumpets (ML, L) are largely something that has caught on in the last half century, being that the role of the trumpet in especially orchestras has evolved immensely from the first half of the twentieth century. These 22Bs are spectacular horns, but are different beasts than their modern counterparts. -John __________________ I Reject Your Reality, And Substitute My Own.

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