screamingmorris

I have a question about the range on a cornet versus the range on a trumpet, how high the player can play.

On the one hand I have read reviews of some cornets which said that the tone becomes extremely thin above High C.

On the other hand I think it was Tom Turner who said that his range on all brass instruments is the same.

Although that might sound contradictory, maybe it is not.
Because maybe a lot depends on exactly which cornet a person is talking about, such as a .460 bore cornet versus a .485 bore cornet.
And it depends on whether the player is using a cornet mouthpiece which is the same depth as the trumpet mouthpiece or deeper than the trumpet mouthpiece.

So my question is:

Does the greater degree of conical tubing in a cornet inherently thin out the upper register fast enough that the player's range on a cornet will not equal the player's range on a trumpet?

On trumpet the tone very slowly thins out as the player ascends, so that the tone thinning graphed horizontally looks like "=", with the graph looking very much like a cylindrical bore.

On a cornet the tone rapidly thins out as the player ascends, so that the tone thinning graphed horizontally looks like ">", with the graph looking very much like a conical bore.

That would indicate to me that the cornet tone would pinch into nothingness at a *lower* frequency than the trumpet tone would pinch into nothingness.

Does anybody know of a player who plays Triple C's on cornet?

I think I remember a member of Maynard Ferguson's band saying in a Web site that Maynard in concert once played something like a G above Double C on a *flugelhorn* but I do not know what the bore size of that flugelhorn was (some have bores much smaller than trumpet bores).
Plus, Maynard was capable of playing *above* a Triple C on trumpet, so his Double C range on flugel would not contradict what I theorized above.

This sounds like the kind of theory that rowuk might know about?

- Morris

omelet

yes

Vulgano Brother

The cornet's original claim to fame was that it didn't sound as "weird" as the valved trumpet in the "high" key of Bb. Writing for brass instrements above written high C was rare--Bach did it a few times, and we have the famous Michael Haydn Concerto in D as examples. Cornet literature, as a whole, seldom messed with notes above high C. When trumpet makers finally got the Bb trumpet to work, composers brought the instrument back to its high C range, and if they wanted a high concert C, they would simply write their trumpet parts in C. It wasn't until Strauss (far as I know) that composers started using the register above high C on a regular, but limited basis.

Why was the cornet considered "thinner" in the upper register than the trumpet? The primary reason, I believe, is one of style. Orchestral players, then and now, "attack" the instrument more than cornetists. The cornet got a big reputation as being a salon instrument--it was wimpy enough that it could be played in smaller rooms. (Sorry if I offend any cornetists, but this is Trumpetmaster!)

Why build a cornet to play higher than what everyone was writing for? It was hard enough to get an instrument to play in tune, and manufacturers were busy producing the whole SATB range for brass bands, well suited for working folk with stubby fingers. The whole British brass band movement, the American Town Band and the German Posaunenchor took advantage of the ideal mating of hearty working-class folk and a loud ensemble.

In a modern instrument there is no reason to have a different top range for trumpet vs. cornet, except for the general sound. If a cornet is supposed to sound different than a trumpet, then it should sound darker, and unless we start talking about world class instruments, the easiest way to get a darker sound is to kill off the higher frequencies, which does weaken the higher notes.

Instrument makers are getting the physics worked out--both Kanstul and Scodwell make flugelhorns, for example, with very easy high registers, but I don't know of yet anyone who produces a screamer cornet.

Hope this helps!

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flugelgirl

I would say "warmer, more mellow" not wimpy! And just because you can scream on a flugel does not mean that you should! I have always thought of cornets as being for more lyrical playing than screaming, I guess sort of doing the work in a wind esemble that a flugel does in a big band or combo. In my mind, cornets are to play pretty and lightly, and flugels should have a huge, warm, breathy sound. Trumpets are for screaming - you just won't get as satifying of a scream out of any other horn! These are, of coarse, my own personal opinions, but they have served me very well over the years!

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veery715

I read somewhere recently that HL Clarke and a few of his cornet playing contemporaries were known for playing up to double C, and one even admitted he didn't know how he did it. That, of course, doesn't speak to the tone quality they achieved.

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screamingmorris

I agree.

But I like to play some ballads on a cornet up an octave to a High C.
And to play a High C a few times in a song on a regular basis it is good to have a range above that High C, up to a High F for example, so that when I play that High C it feels easy and natural and sounds nice.
If my range on the cornet is only up to a High C and I try to include that note in songs on a regular basis, it will sound strained, difficult, poor tone, because it is obvious that is the top note I can play.

Perhaps I am frustrated because I sold my broken-down trumpet and kept only my huge-bore Conn 5A, so now I have nothing to "scream" on other than to put an extra-shallow mouthpiece on the Conn 5A and let 'er rip.
I should get an inexpensive used pro-level trumpet for screaming so that I can leave the deeper Bach 7-no letter mouthpiece on the Conn 5A where it belongs.

- Morris

oldlou

If my ancient and failing memory still serves, I seem to remember reading that back in the 18th century while at The Paris Conservatory E.A. Couturier amazed all present at one of his solo performances with his usable 5+ octave range. That was on a cornet, and with a deep vee cup mouthpiece. Oh, for such chops.


OLDLOU>>

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lmf

After hearing people scream everyday over the media and screaming trumpets playing, a mellow-sounding cornet is a change of pace.

I like the sound of trumpets, but I also like the warm lyrical sound of cornet.

Best wishes,

Lloyd

veery715

I am not at all convinced that the 5% larger bore on your cornet is a factor in 1.) its range or 2.) its general playability. Its conical portion might contribute to it being more difficult to "fill up", but since there is virtually no air flow "through" the horn, it may have more to do with how it sets up a standing wave and where the nodes are and if they are interfered with by the internal structure of the instrument.
Your approach to playing it may also be rife with trumpet concepts.

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richtom

Herbert L. Clarke was not afraid to write some high Fs and Gs in his solos.
If you do not already own it, may I suggest you all look for Gerard Schwarz's recording of "Cornet Favorites" he recorded back in the early 70s. He used a Bach cornet and played it as a cornet should sound. Of course, as a great virtuoso, he knew how to make that particular sound. Clarke, Simon, Arban, Hohne, and Virgil Thomson works are on it.
He pops off a few high Fs and Gs with great ease and his sound is still quite cornet-like.
A wonderful recording on the Nonesuch label and should still be available on CD.

Regards,
Rich Tomasek