Early 1930's King Liberty trumpet intonation

gglassmeyer · 10-10-2007, 10:52 AM

This question goes out to any of you folks with similar King Liberty's. The horn I have had a twist in the lead pipe from the previous owner's attempt at removing a stuck mouthpiece with a pair of pliers.
I got the horn from my wife's aunt, it had belonged to her husband. It also had a hole in the 2nd valve slide which was "fixed" by putting duct tape over it.
The guy had money to buy a new horn or fix this one, but for some reason just played it that way.

I got it and asked the local repair folks to unstick the slides, untwist the leadpipe, and patch the 2nd slide. Basically get it into decent playing shape.

The problem is, it seems to have intonation issues and I'm wondering if that's an issue with all of these horns, or is it something that happened as a result of the repairs.

I do know that the mouthpiece reciever is out of round, since mouthpieces slightly rock back and forth.

Any thoughts?

Don Christensen · 10-10-2007, 12:02 PM

The Liberty trumpets were professional horns in their day and did not suffer from intonation problems any more so than most modern day trumpets do. But you have to keep in mind that your 1930 horn is well over 70 years old and has decades of wear and tear. Patched slides, twisted pipes and out of round mouthpiece receivers don't help any. It's also very likely that your horn has worn out valves. leaky valves can do nasty things to intonation. You may also consider what mouthpiece you are using to play the horn. Modern mouthpieces may not be a good match for the old style receiver.

Condition is everything on these old horns if you're looking for something that's going to be playable without putting lots of money into restoration.

oldlou · 10-10-2007, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Christensen

The Liberty trumpets were professional horns in their day and did not suffer from intonation problems any more so than most modern day trumpets do. But you have to keep in mind that your 1930 horn is well over 70 years old and has decades of wear and tear. Patched slides, twisted pipes and out of round mouthpiece receivers don't help any. It's also very likely that your horn has worn out valves. leaky valves can do nasty things to intonation.

As a trumpet 'junky' I have 'acquired' several King Liberty's over the years, ancluding a mint Silvertone. Worn valves are indeed a major cause of intonation problems. If you have any hesitation about this clean your valves and casings of any oil and relube with olive oil. It will slow the valves a bit, but, the leaks will be greatly decreased. This might be the cause for your intonation problems.

You may also consider what mouthpiece you are using to play the horn. Modern mouthpieces may not be a good match for the old style receiver.

On this one I can't agree. I have never found a Liberty that was fussy about mouthpieces, but, my lips are.

One of the major problems that modern trumpeters have with Liberty's is the small, ( .445" ) bore. They respond much differently than most modern trumpets and have an inherantly bright tone. Most young trumpeters tend to want to overblow them. Try backing off a bit and then, listen to that old girl sing.

Condition is everything on these old horns if you're looking for something that's going to be playable without putting lots of money into restoration.

OLDLOU>>

Toobz · 10-10-2007, 12:53 PM

Hey Don,

You seem to know Kings rather well. My question is regarding the older, even earlier Kings. How was their intonation ? I know the very early King saxes had some intonation issues, but their later saxes are some of the finest ever made.

gglassmeyer · 10-10-2007, 05:06 PM

Thanks Don, that's pretty much what I expected to hear. I just thought I'd ask before spending any more money on further repairs. Most of the horn is in good shape and valves don't seem too bad compression wise. I'm not sure about alignment other than what I can see through the valve slides and they don't look to be off.

I did wonder about the mouthpieces today vs. that era. My wife's grandmother played an old Cavalier trumpet in school and the mouthpiece that is in that case seems shorter that usual (though not a cornet mouthpiece). I know that the Cavalier is a student horn and the valve slides for that horn had been replaced. That horn has some real intonation issues. I knew the Liberty was a pro horn and was surprised that I had some intonation issues, but given the twisted leadpipe I thought that might be the cause.

I do have an old H.N. White mouthpiece somewhere in my archives along with an older Parduba double-cup. I'll have to try those.

My wife's uncle that used to play the Liberty had an extremely shallow Rudy Muck mouthpiece. I bet that guy was doing some screamin' with that thing. He had been long deceased before I met my wife. I still can't believe he never got the horn fixed or bought a new one, they had a lot of $$$$.

Maybe I shouldn't have fixed the twist :)

stradguy · 10-10-2007, 10:31 PM

my king liberty had no problems it was one of the best trumpets i have ever payed, but someont thought it would be funny to pull the first valve out and beat the crap out of it!

VetPsychWars · 10-12-2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gglassmeyer

Thanks Don, that's pretty much what I expected to hear. I just thought I'd ask before spending any more money on further repairs. Most of the horn is in good shape and valves don't seem too bad compression wise. I'm not sure about alignment other than what I can see through the valve slides and they don't look to be off.

I did wonder about the mouthpieces today vs. that era. My wife's grandmother played an old Cavalier trumpet in school and the mouthpiece that is in that case seems shorter that usual (though not a cornet mouthpiece). I know that the Cavalier is a student horn and the valve slides for that horn had been replaced. That horn has some real intonation issues. I knew the Liberty was a pro horn and was surprised that I had some intonation issues, but given the twisted leadpipe I thought that might be the cause.

I do have an old H.N. White mouthpiece somewhere in my archives along with an older Parduba double-cup. I'll have to try those.

My wife's uncle that used to play the Liberty had an extremely shallow Rudy Muck mouthpiece. I bet that guy was doing some screamin' with that thing. He had been long deceased before I met my wife. I still can't believe he never got the horn fixed or bought a new one, they had a lot of $$$$.

Maybe I shouldn't have fixed the twist :)

Also at that time, some horns were made using a different design philosophy. For example, the first valve slide is probably a little longer than you're used to, so the intonation problems you're having might only be that the tone centers are in different directions than you're used to.

Tom

study888 · 10-13-2007, 09:57 PM

Hello Greg. A friend of mine. Brought me a old Trumpet.That had been in his family's attic a long time. It turned out to be the first models of the King Liberty. The serial #is 89635. Puts it in the 1925-30 year make. It appears to be silver plated. It is at this time only good for a parts horn. Missing is the third tuning slide and second tuning slide. Back of bell bow is bent in pretty bad and good dent a little further down.The Bell and rim and rest of bell length not damaged.The main part you need. The m.p. reciever and lead pipe and tuning slide and braces are intact. Also all valves.Though very dirty.Are showing no brass wear. All of the valve assembly etc. Are complete. If you are interested in buying. I will take $40.00 for it. The price includes the shipping. You can send me a e-mail if interested. My e-mail address is jyoungjr9@bellsouth.net. If you end up buying this parts horn. And get yours up to playing speed. And if Stradguy still has his Liberty. If your first valve is O.K. on your horn. Maybe he might want to buy yours. I was holding on to this horn. In hopes of finding a old Liberty also.I like med. to small bore horns. I have one of the first made Olds L.A. Ambassadors. Have the same problem. Someone twisted off the m.p. reciever. Bought a Newer L.A. Ambassador parts horn off e-bay past April. For a total of $44.00. My Music tech. can not get around to me till January or Febuary. He is booked solid till then. Band contract jobs etc. Just as well for now. My truck needs some repairs first. Still have my 1948 King Master, 1942 Conn Concert Grand, and 1967 Argenta Cornets to toot on.Hope this does not offend anyone. As I answered this quickly before retiring. Having a senior moment. But sure there is a selling format on the T.M. May should have posted it first.And refered you there.Take care.And good luck on fixing this Liberty. I wish this one I have was in mint conditon. As they are beautiful trumpets with nice engraving on bell.

Don Christensen · 10-14-2007, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobz

Hey Don,

You seem to know Kings rather well. My question is regarding the older, even earlier Kings. How was their intonation ? I know the very early King saxes had some intonation issues, but their later saxes are some of the finest ever made.

Hey Toobz, I'm afraid that I'm not all that familar with the really old stuff. My earliest king is a liberty from 1922. One of these days I'll score a few samples of the real oldies and see how they play.

Toobz · 10-15-2007, 12:53 AM

I hear you . So many horns, so little time !

10-10-2007, 10:52 AM	#1 (permalink)
gglassmeyer Pianissimo User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 154	Early 1930's King Liberty trumpet intonation This question goes out to any of you folks with similar King Liberty's. The horn I have had a twist in the lead pipe from the previous owner's attempt at removing a stuck mouthpiece with a pair of pliers. I got the horn from my wife's aunt, it had belonged to her husband. It also had a hole in the 2nd valve slide which was "fixed" by putting duct tape over it. The guy had money to buy a new horn or fix this one, but for some reason just played it that way. I got it and asked the local repair folks to unstick the slides, untwist the leadpipe, and patch the 2nd slide. Basically get it into decent playing shape. The problem is, it seems to have intonation issues and I'm wondering if that's an issue with all of these horns, or is it something that happened as a result of the repairs. I do know that the mouthpiece reciever is out of round, since mouthpieces slightly rock back and forth. Any thoughts? __________________ Greg Glassmeyer

10-10-2007, 12:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
Don Christensen Pianissimo User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Southern Utah Posts: 52	Re: Early 1930's King Liberty trumpet intonation The Liberty trumpets were professional horns in their day and did not suffer from intonation problems any more so than most modern day trumpets do. But you have to keep in mind that your 1930 horn is well over 70 years old and has decades of wear and tear. Patched slides, twisted pipes and out of round mouthpiece receivers don't help any. It's also very likely that your horn has worn out valves. leaky valves can do nasty things to intonation. You may also consider what mouthpiece you are using to play the horn. Modern mouthpieces may not be a good match for the old style receiver. Condition is everything on these old horns if you're looking for something that's going to be playable without putting lots of money into restoration.

10-10-2007, 12:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
Toobz Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Prescott Valley , AZ Posts: 585	Re: Early 1930's King Liberty trumpet intonation Hey Don, You seem to know Kings rather well. My question is regarding the older, even earlier Kings. How was their intonation ? I know the very early King saxes had some intonation issues, but their later saxes are some of the finest ever made. __________________ Conn 10B New Era trumpet Martin Committee cornet And lots of other old and smelly stuff !

10-10-2007, 05:06 PM	#5 (permalink)
gglassmeyer Pianissimo User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 154	Re: Early 1930's King Liberty trumpet intonation Thanks Don, that's pretty much what I expected to hear. I just thought I'd ask before spending any more money on further repairs. Most of the horn is in good shape and valves don't seem too bad compression wise. I'm not sure about alignment other than what I can see through the valve slides and they don't look to be off. I did wonder about the mouthpieces today vs. that era. My wife's grandmother played an old Cavalier trumpet in school and the mouthpiece that is in that case seems shorter that usual (though not a cornet mouthpiece). I know that the Cavalier is a student horn and the valve slides for that horn had been replaced. That horn has some real intonation issues. I knew the Liberty was a pro horn and was surprised that I had some intonation issues, but given the twisted leadpipe I thought that might be the cause. I do have an old H.N. White mouthpiece somewhere in my archives along with an older Parduba double-cup. I'll have to try those. My wife's uncle that used to play the Liberty had an extremely shallow Rudy Muck mouthpiece. I bet that guy was doing some screamin' with that thing. He had been long deceased before I met my wife. I still can't believe he never got the horn fixed or bought a new one, they had a lot of $$$$. Maybe I shouldn't have fixed the twist :) __________________ Greg Glassmeyer

10-10-2007, 10:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
stradguy Pianissimo User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montevallo,Alabama Posts: 85	Re: Early 1930's King Liberty trumpet intonation my king liberty had no problems it was one of the best trumpets i have ever payed, but someont thought it would be funny to pull the first valve out and beat the crap out of it! __________________ Conn Vocabell 40A 1938 King Liberty King Super 20 Weird really old Joseph Brunn Flugel Horn

10-13-2007, 09:57 PM	#8 (permalink)
study888 Pianissimo User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 63	Re: Early 1930's King Liberty trumpet intonation Hello Greg. A friend of mine. Brought me a old Trumpet.That had been in his family's attic a long time. It turned out to be the first models of the King Liberty. The serial #is 89635. Puts it in the 1925-30 year make. It appears to be silver plated. It is at this time only good for a parts horn. Missing is the third tuning slide and second tuning slide. Back of bell bow is bent in pretty bad and good dent a little further down.The Bell and rim and rest of bell length not damaged.The main part you need. The m.p. reciever and lead pipe and tuning slide and braces are intact. Also all valves.Though very dirty.Are showing no brass wear. All of the valve assembly etc. Are complete. If you are interested in buying. I will take $40.00 for it. The price includes the shipping. You can send me a e-mail if interested. My e-mail address is jyoungjr9@bellsouth.net. If you end up buying this parts horn. And get yours up to playing speed. And if Stradguy still has his Liberty. If your first valve is O.K. on your horn. Maybe he might want to buy yours. I was holding on to this horn. In hopes of finding a old Liberty also.I like med. to small bore horns. I have one of the first made Olds L.A. Ambassadors. Have the same problem. Someone twisted off the m.p. reciever. Bought a Newer L.A. Ambassador parts horn off e-bay past April. For a total of $44.00. My Music tech. can not get around to me till January or Febuary. He is booked solid till then. Band contract jobs etc. Just as well for now. My truck needs some repairs first. Still have my 1948 King Master, 1942 Conn Concert Grand, and 1967 Argenta Cornets to toot on.Hope this does not offend anyone. As I answered this quickly before retiring. Having a senior moment. But sure there is a selling format on the T.M. May should have posted it first.And refered you there.Take care.And good luck on fixing this Liberty. I wish this one I have was in mint conditon. As they are beautiful trumpets with nice engraving on bell.

10-15-2007, 12:53 AM	#10 (permalink)
Toobz Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Prescott Valley , AZ Posts: 585	Re: Early 1930's King Liberty trumpet intonation I hear you . So many horns, so little time ! __________________ Conn 10B New Era trumpet Martin Committee cornet And lots of other old and smelly stuff !

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