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Vintage Trumpets / Cornets Discuss Identify Rotary Cornet in the Equipment forums; Short Intro: (I apologise for the duplicate, my computer is very slow and laggy) Last year, I was going to ...
  1. #1
    Fortissimo User BrassBandMajor's Avatar
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    Identify Rotary Cornet

    Short Intro:

    (I apologise for the duplicate, my computer is very slow and laggy)


    Last year, I was going to visit Germany and Austria so around weeks before my departure, I was on German Ebay and to my delight I found a rather in-my-budget cornet. It had rotary valves, looked quite cute. The seller had no idea except it was a cornet and it was from his attic. (Probably a family relic).


    So, at midnight I woke up and bid for the cornet and won with the price 138 euros.


    Zooms past a few months.... Back in NZ


    So, I first I do a quick inspection. I see no marking on the cornet, no engraving, krantz or anything.


    NO maker's mark. It is not a real precision horn but it is playable. Rather a kuhlohorn+cornet style sound. Love to play around with it in spare time.

    A few days later, I try to work the valves but doing an internal rotor removal and oil it internally.
    I open the first valve and the work is not precision. The screws cannot be too loose or too tight, it needs to be a little semi-loose to allow the rotor to move. and to my surprise, a teaspoon amount of metal shaving comes out.


    After that I clean out that valve and put it back.


    and I forget everything about it.

    After a few months,

    Barliman finds an german auction and posts it somewhere. It is the exactly same cornet but with a patch stamped:


    Restored by August Clemens Giler


    So I think don't know who made it.....


    I need help from the community to help me identify this mystery cornet.


    I would like a possible maker, manufactured location and time era when it was possibly made.


    I presume its a 1920s~30s, by looking at the linkages and I believe those were used particularly by the makers in Markneukirchen during a specific time during the 30s and was only used on professional level horns.


    PHOTOS:

    Attention:
    Constant N+1 & N-1 in progress


    B&S Challenger I 3137
    Couesnon Triebert Moderne Long Bell Piccolo
    Ganter G7aN
    Arno Windisch 'Silber-Deluxe'
    and a bunch of horns that I can't be bothered to list......

    This message was created using 100% recycled electrons.



  2. #2
    Piano User OldSchoolEuph's Avatar
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    Re: Identify Rotary Cornet

    Epoxy . . . . . Not what you want to see used for repair.

    As a lifelong Detroiter, these rotaries are far from my piston-centric background (that's an automotive pun for those who missed it), but I am sure someone else will have insights on this. I do notice the braces, which appear to be made with mass produced parts, and appear on stencil brass from the later 19th century that were imported to the US and stenciled. Many of those were either Bohemian or Saxon tradition. But then I look at those valves and the trim, and the aesthetic looks a bit ottoman, with the valves looking Vienese to me. An imperial tradition horn (and I'm talking 1870s-WWI) would have contrasting metal trim (check), the hard linkage (check), with an ornate, hand-cut look to it (check), clock springs and a long bar-stock mount (check), "decorative armor" in that contrasting metal (check), and a garland and bell crest plate (no check, hmmmm)

    So some elements that seem to speak to the imperial tradition, blending north & south, and little Saxon influence. If your date range is accurate, then cross-pollination of ideas and mass produced parts were certainly mixing styles, but I think it's older. I see too much hand fabrication for that period.

    It is very odd to see so much ornamentation (in the elements of construction as opposed to later, 20th century, Anglo-American style engraving) and see a completely bare bell.

    Hopefully someone with regional knowledge will respond, as my ramblings have not answered your question. But I would proceed with care. This is a very interesting horn - and very delicate.
    True Tone likes this.
    Trumpet: 1961 Mt. Vernon Bach 43, 2000 Xeno 8335RGS, 1927 Conn 22B NYS
    Euphonium: 1965 Besson baritone, 1975 Yamaha YEP-321, 1985 YEP-621
    Trombone: 1975 Olds Recording R-20
    MP: Schilke 17d4d & 53

    www.trumpet-history.com

  3. #3
    Fortissimo User BrassBandMajor's Avatar
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    Re: Identify Rotary Cornet

    Epoxy? Those two bottles are linkage oils...

    Anyway, I believe this is a mixed-type of a horn.

    Interesting blend between craftsmanship.

    A possible creature by a Czechoslovakian/Bohemian maker who went to Markneukirchen?

    So many possibilities......
    Attention:
    Constant N+1 & N-1 in progress


    B&S Challenger I 3137
    Couesnon Triebert Moderne Long Bell Piccolo
    Ganter G7aN
    Arno Windisch 'Silber-Deluxe'
    and a bunch of horns that I can't be bothered to list......

    This message was created using 100% recycled electrons.



  4. #4
    Piano User OldSchoolEuph's Avatar
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    Re: Identify Rotary Cornet

    I suppose it could be a very low temp solder with pure lead and the camera altering the color, but that looks like a big splotch of metalized epoxy reattaching the linkage mount bar to the Valve slide sleeve.

    Is there some clear indication of Marknuekirchen being the point of origin? I missed that if you have explained.

    Bear in mind that Czechoslovakia did not exist until after the destruction of Austro-Hungary by the treaty ending WWI. Bohemia and Moravia were Germanic states of the old post-Roman political structure that were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire prior to 1918, and thus subject to a large influx of Slavic peoples from the East, who made up a large enough minority population by 1918 for the region to be made into that dual-ethnic entity (and then the germanic folks were kicked out entirely in 1946 - this history contributes to the tensions over Syrian immigration regionally in current events)

    So when you look at instruments from the region, you have to also consider a context framed by lingual cultural differences among people sharing the same state, who are quite different in their day to day socio-cultural environment - which manifests in their craft. This makes localizing an artifact quite a challenge.
    Last edited by OldSchoolEuph; 12-19-2016 at 05:28 AM. Reason: iPad
    True Tone likes this.
    Trumpet: 1961 Mt. Vernon Bach 43, 2000 Xeno 8335RGS, 1927 Conn 22B NYS
    Euphonium: 1965 Besson baritone, 1975 Yamaha YEP-321, 1985 YEP-621
    Trombone: 1975 Olds Recording R-20
    MP: Schilke 17d4d & 53

    www.trumpet-history.com

  5. #5
    Fortissimo User BrassBandMajor's Avatar
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    Re: Identify Rotary Cornet

    UPDATE 2:

    Not my cornet but the one found by barliman2001.

    Any help OldSchoolEuph?
    kurriose Taschentrompete | eBay
    Attention:
    Constant N+1 & N-1 in progress


    B&S Challenger I 3137
    Couesnon Triebert Moderne Long Bell Piccolo
    Ganter G7aN
    Arno Windisch 'Silber-Deluxe'
    and a bunch of horns that I can't be bothered to list......

    This message was created using 100% recycled electrons.



  6. #6
    Piano User OldSchoolEuph's Avatar
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    Re: Identify Rotary Cornet

    Looks like the listing is no longer online. Pics?
    Trumpet: 1961 Mt. Vernon Bach 43, 2000 Xeno 8335RGS, 1927 Conn 22B NYS
    Euphonium: 1965 Besson baritone, 1975 Yamaha YEP-321, 1985 YEP-621
    Trombone: 1975 Olds Recording R-20
    MP: Schilke 17d4d & 53

    www.trumpet-history.com

  7. #7
    Fortissimo User BrassBandMajor's Avatar
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    Re: Identify Rotary Cornet

    For the ebay one, its completed but you can still see the photos.

    My photos crashed because tonight I did a short clean-up with photobucket.

    True Tone and Pascalouisiana like this.
    Attention:
    Constant N+1 & N-1 in progress


    B&S Challenger I 3137
    Couesnon Triebert Moderne Long Bell Piccolo
    Ganter G7aN
    Arno Windisch 'Silber-Deluxe'
    and a bunch of horns that I can't be bothered to list......

    This message was created using 100% recycled electrons.



  8. #8
    Fortissimo User barliman2001's Avatar
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    Re: Identify Rotary Cornet

    Have you ever thought about this perhaps being a Russian military cornet? Those usually only have a few small Cyrillian marks on the bell. The make and style looks just about right for a Russian instrument, and the strengthened bell bow points the same way.
    True Tone likes this.


  9. #9
    Fortissimo User BrassBandMajor's Avatar
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    Re: Identify Rotary Cornet

    I don't think it is a Russian instrument because, all of them least have a stamped marking on the bell.
    The valves on it look very flimsy, when on the other hand my cornet's valves look like a quality German one.
    Attention:
    Constant N+1 & N-1 in progress


    B&S Challenger I 3137
    Couesnon Triebert Moderne Long Bell Piccolo
    Ganter G7aN
    Arno Windisch 'Silber-Deluxe'
    and a bunch of horns that I can't be bothered to list......

    This message was created using 100% recycled electrons.



  10. #10
    Fortissimo User barliman2001's Avatar
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    Re: Identify Rotary Cornet

    I did not mean Soviet cornet, but Russian. Pre-WWI there were a few musical instrument makers in Russia that really were top-notch. Remember that Zimmermann cornet from a few threads back...?
    In Czarist times, there were vast differences between regimental bands as well. Guards bands like the Band of the Preobrashenskiy Guards were among the top military orchestras in the world and served out with the best instruments money could buy, whereas the bands of some local regiments from behind the Urals got the leftovers...
    True Tone likes this.


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