JoeBlack

Hi everyone (new member here )

I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions. If an H. N. White King Liberty has a serial # 73xxx does that denote a 1924 production year? Also if there is a capital "L" stamped below the serial number does that imply a "large bore"? If so is the bore a .468??

One last thing, based on the serial number would the valves be copper plate, nickel or chrome plate?



Thank you very much,


Joe

Indian

Welcome to TM. Do you play?

The serial number looks to be from 1922-1924 depending on which list. All standard early Libertys up until about 1930 were available only in medium bore, 0.448. By 1932 they were available in three bores: Artists Model #1051 with a Bore of .468, Medium Model #1050 with a Bore of .448 and Small Model #1049 with a Bore of .438. If you have a very early Liberty it was probably in a medium bore. I have heard that H.N. White did make some early Libertys with custom bores and options but I have never seen one.

They were available in up to six different finish levels. They were also available with or without a solid Sterling Silver bell. The early models with a Sterling Silver bell were called "SilverTone Models" later they were called "SilverSonic Models". H.N. White was noted for superior plating and engraving and even the most basic models had nice engraving and the Artist Models were works of art complete with gold leaf and gold trim plating.

__________________
Rob,
King Liberty SilverTone (3)
King Liberty (7) Super 20 (2)
Conn Vocabell 40A - 40B - 80A (6) - 81A (1) - 38A Victor (2) - 22B - 16B, 12B Coprion bell
Getzen Tone Balanced Super Deluxe
Holton French LeBlanc (1) - Al Hirt 550
Olds Studio (1) - Special (1)

oldlou

I own a King Silvertone trumpet that has bronze plated valves and a gold plated Liberty with nickel silver plated valves. I have never heard of any King instrument that had chrome plated valves.


OLDLOU>>

__________________
Couturier trumpet
York Master Model trumpet
York Elite trumpet
York Airflow cornet
King super 20 Master Model cornet
King Liberty trumpet
Reynolds Professional cornet
Bohm & Meinl professional trumpet
Besson 10-10 trumpet with Holton M.F. bell
Olds Special cornet Los Angeles
B&H Sovereign cornet
G.R.Band Instr. cornet
Getzen Super Deluxe trumpet and cornet
Getzen Deluxe trumpet and cornet
Many others no room to list

JoeBlack

Thanks for the info guys. I played in the mid 80's in HS, and have been on a very long break. I'm jumping back in and am purchasing the above detailed trumpet.

From my research and your intel I seem to be encountering conflicts with what the seller is stating.

He indicates that the trumpet is "large bore", as indicated by the "L" stamped below the serial number. He states he measured the at the second valve and found it to be .469". (I assume from my research that if anything he meant .468"). He restores instruments (horns, sax) regularly and has excellent feedback on eBay so I am not too concerned yet, though I need to get to the bottom of these inconsistencies.

How can the horn be a .468" bore if the serial number indicates that it's of a production year that only produced one bore; medium?

What does the "L" stamped below the serial number stand for??

--------------

Breaking news - just checked my other emails, and found a reply from the H. N. White website. I had queried these same things with them and this is their response:

Hmmm, seems there is a large bore 1924 model after all?!

What say ye?

I've repeatedly attempted to upload an image of the "L" in question, but this server hangs me up .. it's a "jpg" @ 37kb. So here is a linked image from the google cache of the ebay ad...







Thanks all,


Joe

talcito

He is a very knowledgable seller. You could surely count on his playing descriptions as well. I have had a couple of transactions with him in the past and everything was perfect.

Indian

I mis-spoke, OK, I was wrong wrong but most were medium bore as stated earlier. It seems that only medium bore was available until 1924 then by 1926 some small and large bore horns were available but it is not clear if they were special orders or not . Some information says they were special ordered in while medium bore was the standard.

There is some conflicting information even on this site. Note the 1924 add says only small bore available. Then the 1832 ad says three bores available. I think, I'm not positive, that large bore horns were available at least on a special order basis before the 1926-1930 period. Remember also that H.N. White had a custom shop that would make a custom horn with any options for a discriminating player. The horn you are looking at may be a very early large bore. I have not seen a large bore before 1930. My Artist large bore SilverTones are 1930 and 1932 horns and my other large bores are all later than that except for a 1928 large bore brass liberty. I apologize for my earlier post.

Here is a source for some information for you. H N White Trumpets: Liberty, Master, 2-B, Super 20, Silver Flair.

__________________
Rob,
King Liberty SilverTone (3)
King Liberty (7) Super 20 (2)
Conn Vocabell 40A - 40B - 80A (6) - 81A (1) - 38A Victor (2) - 22B - 16B, 12B Coprion bell
Getzen Tone Balanced Super Deluxe
Holton French LeBlanc (1) - Al Hirt 550
Olds Studio (1) - Special (1)

veery715

Large bore or not - it sure is purdy!

v

JoeBlack

Agreed! His prose describing the horns is second to none, and is what lit the fire in me to begin playing again and to buy this lovely horn.

I have to agree with the custom solution. Somehow that idea never comes up in the online info so I was confused as to how a large bore could be available for that year. I appreciate your expansion on the possibility of earlier custom horns because nowhere else on the web could I find that information, so please don't feel the need to apologize.

She sure is!!


Thanks for all the clarification,

Joe

Indian

Thanks for the understanding. As a follow up I got out my Medium Bore SilverTone and Large Bore Artist and compared them to the pictures you posted and the size of the tubing on the horn you are looking at and it definately looks to be Large Bore. Your pictures look almost identical to my Artist Bore in tubing size. I hope you get her she looks to be a rare animal indeed that is just begging to be played again.

__________________
Rob,
King Liberty SilverTone (3)
King Liberty (7) Super 20 (2)
Conn Vocabell 40A - 40B - 80A (6) - 81A (1) - 38A Victor (2) - 22B - 16B, 12B Coprion bell
Getzen Tone Balanced Super Deluxe
Holton French LeBlanc (1) - Al Hirt 550
Olds Studio (1) - Special (1)

JoeBlack

Rob, thanks for taking the time to pull out your horns for comparison sake. I appreciate the bolstered confidence your information provides. To be honest, up until 2 weeks ago, I had little to no idea that vintage horns were out there in the world experiencing regular play...AND in such amazing shape! I think I was hooked the moment I saw the horn above, and the vivid description that it came with it detailing it's sound -

And feeling it was indeed 'a rare bird' I've cinched a deal as of last week.

What's really got me interested now is trying to investigate it's history. In a perfect world I'd know who played it when and where. I'd settle for (now) knowing, if indeed it was a custom order, where that order was made. Was the H.N. White custom shop under the same roof as the other horns being built? If so how did they handle serial numbers? If medium bores were the norm for these years, how did they address numbering the 'custom' horns? Did they stamp the few custom horns serially with all the others coming off the line, OR did they allocate a block of numbers that would be stamped on only custom horns? If the latter is true, it might put a mild crimp in the serial/year model somewhat. A slow 'custom' year might see a pre-allocated block of numbers moving forward into the next years production.

All speculating aside, vintage horns are pretty damn cool


Peace,

Joe