ComeBackKid

I just purchased a vintage horn on a whim. It is in incredible condition (not a single dent or abrasion) and plays wonderfully. It has a very bright, penetrating sound so it seems it would make a good lead horn (using my smallish Conn 4C mouthpiece; It is slightly darker with my old King Cleveland mouthpiece).

The engraving on the bell says 'Alcazar - Made in Elkhart, Ind. USA'. I did a search but nothing comes up that seems to relate to this instrument. The guy I bought it from did not know anything. I cannot tell if it is a long cornet or a short trumpet. Here are some details and photos:

Reasons to think it is a long cornet...
(1) It has the long cornet form factor with an extra turn in the bell tail
(2) It is 15 1/2" long from receiver to bell
(3) It takes a cornet mouthpiece

Reasons to think it is a short trumpet...
(1) It sounds like a trumpet
(2) It is cylindrical bore (all tuning slides and the bell tail are the same diameter)

Other Interesting facts...
- It is a ML bore - in fact, all of the slides will exactly interchange with the slides on my Olds Special
- It is a smallish bell - only 4 1/2"
- It has bottom sprung valves
- It has no 3rd valve ring - but it doesn't need one. I tested the intonation from bottom to top on my tuner (I know! I know! but it's the best I can do) and every single note was spot on or easily lipped in without a slide.
- It is incredibly open in the upper register. I can briefly hit F above high C - which I can almost never do on any other trumpet and I can sustain D making it sound like a note. I can ply "Let the Bright Seraphim" better on this than anything else I have. What a find!!

Anybody ever seen one of these??

Photos:

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Come-Back Kid
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Selmer Invicta London (1956)
Olds Recording (1958)
Olds Super (1951, 1963, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969)
Olds SuperStar (1971)
Olds Studio (1955,1970)
Olds Special (1951, 1956, 1958, 1960, 1962)
Olds Ambassador (a few: 1953-1979)
Andreas Eastman (new)
(+Conn Director, King Cleveland, Holton Collegiate,
Blessing Accord, York, Yamaha, Getzen, Amati, Revelle, Bundy, Alcazar)

Dale Proctor

It's a long cornet, a stencil horn from a major maker, like Conn or Holton. I had a trumpet version of that horn (same valve section, brace design, ferrules, valve caps, finger buttons, etc.) that was labled "Crusader", but the valves were worn out.

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Olde Towne Brass
www.otbrass.com

Brass Band of Huntsville

"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

MFfan

Looks like a Pan American 90A per photo on Connloyalist.
The Conn Loyalist

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Dave Rafferty
Reynolds Medalist cornet
1953 Olds Ambassador (LA)
1966 Besson 2-20 (Silver)
Lemar Trumpet (peashooter-Conn?)
55-56 York Artist Trumpet
Besson 609 trumpet
1955-60 Besson 8-10 Trumpet
1948 Besson cornet
1946 King Master Cornet
www.KalamazooconcertBand.org

ComeBackKid

Dale and Dave - thanks for the info. I compared the photo on the Conn Loyalist site with mine and they are identical except for the bottom caps where mine are slightly flatter on the bottom. Either mine is a later year or else whoever ordered the stencil design specified a different cap.

Dale, when you said this is a cornet and you had a trumpet version, what is the difference other than the MP receiver? I am still trying to figure out which feature makes this a cornet.

__________________
Come-Back Kid
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Selmer Invicta London (1956)
Olds Recording (1958)
Olds Super (1951, 1963, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969)
Olds SuperStar (1971)
Olds Studio (1955,1970)
Olds Special (1951, 1956, 1958, 1960, 1962)
Olds Ambassador (a few: 1953-1979)
Andreas Eastman (new)
(+Conn Director, King Cleveland, Holton Collegiate,
Blessing Accord, York, Yamaha, Getzen, Amati, Revelle, Bundy, Alcazar)

veery715

I have a very similar horn, labeled Easy Play on the bell. Here shown over an Olds Recording. It has double bracing as opposed to single on the leadpipe, and is a cornet. It plays quite well.

Dale Proctor

Here are a couple of old (low resolution) digital photos of the trumpet version. The receiver, leadpipe, and bell are all different. Who knows if your cornet is more conical, though.

__________________
Olde Towne Brass
www.otbrass.com

Brass Band of Huntsville

"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

VetPsychWars

Definitely a cornet.

I see your receiver ring is split... I wonder if someone jammed a trumpet moutpiece in there at one time.

Tom

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1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939, 1946 Buescher Aristocrat Trumpets
1955 Buescher 400 Cornet
Meeuwsen custom 5C-ish mouthpiece
Milwaukee Metropolitan Community Concert Band

Gaucho Viejo

Remarkably inornate - I like the nice clean lines and the absence of unnecessary "googaws". Attractive from a purely design standpoint and it plays well to boot. Nice find.

__________________
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them;
otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven” - Matthew 6:1

ComeBackKid

Well, I am definitely out-voted on this by Tom, Dale and Veery. But, again, I am wondering why. I measured the bore and it is the same at every point that I measured it although I could only measure the OD of the pipe exiting the 3rd valve, since that is the same as the tuning slide - and all of the other points - I assume the ID is the same as well. It sure seems cylindrical to me.

That's what it looks like. It still holds the MP securely - both a long shank and short shank cornet MP - but I am planning to have that repaired before I go much further with it.

Thanks again for all of the info from everyone.

__________________
Come-Back Kid
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Selmer Invicta London (1956)
Olds Recording (1958)
Olds Super (1951, 1963, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969)
Olds SuperStar (1971)
Olds Studio (1955,1970)
Olds Special (1951, 1956, 1958, 1960, 1962)
Olds Ambassador (a few: 1953-1979)
Andreas Eastman (new)
(+Conn Director, King Cleveland, Holton Collegiate,
Blessing Accord, York, Yamaha, Getzen, Amati, Revelle, Bundy, Alcazar)

VetPsychWars

The modern trumpet is basically a funny-looking cornet. The difference between the two instruments? A cornet takes a cornet mouthpiece and a trumpet takes a trumpet mouthpiece.

Most cornets have the same diameter tubing throughout the valve block. It's the taper in the mouthpipe and bell that will differentiate your modern cornet and trumpet.

Tom

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1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939, 1946 Buescher Aristocrat Trumpets
1955 Buescher 400 Cornet
Meeuwsen custom 5C-ish mouthpiece
Milwaukee Metropolitan Community Concert Band