Long Cornet or Short Trumpet?

ComeBackKid · 10-24-2009, 07:30 PM

I just purchased a vintage horn on a whim. It is in incredible condition (not a single dent or abrasion) and plays wonderfully. It has a very bright, penetrating sound so it seems it would make a good lead horn (using my smallish Conn 4C mouthpiece; It is slightly darker with my old King Cleveland mouthpiece).

The engraving on the bell says 'Alcazar - Made in Elkhart, Ind. USA'. I did a search but nothing comes up that seems to relate to this instrument. The guy I bought it from did not know anything. I cannot tell if it is a long cornet or a short trumpet. Here are some details and photos:

Reasons to think it is a long cornet...
(1) It has the long cornet form factor with an extra turn in the bell tail
(2) It is 15 1/2" long from receiver to bell
(3) It takes a cornet mouthpiece

Reasons to think it is a short trumpet...
(1) It sounds like a trumpet
(2) It is cylindrical bore (all tuning slides and the bell tail are the same diameter)

Other Interesting facts...
- It is a ML bore - in fact, all of the slides will exactly interchange with the slides on my Olds Special
- It is a smallish bell - only 4 1/2"
- It has bottom sprung valves
- It has no 3rd valve ring - but it doesn't need one. I tested the intonation from bottom to top on my tuner (I know! I know! but it's the best I can do) and every single note was spot on or easily lipped in without a slide.
- It is incredibly open in the upper register. I can briefly hit F above high C - which I can almost never do on any other trumpet and I can sustain D making it sound like a note. I can ply "Let the Bright Seraphim" better on this than anything else I have. What a find!!

Anybody ever seen one of these??

Photos:

Dale Proctor · 10-25-2009, 01:39 AM

It's a long cornet, a stencil horn from a major maker, like Conn or Holton. I had a trumpet version of that horn (same valve section, brace design, ferrules, valve caps, finger buttons, etc.) that was labled "Crusader", but the valves were worn out.

MFfan · 10-25-2009, 09:02 AM

Looks like a Pan American 90A per photo on Connloyalist.
The Conn Loyalist

ComeBackKid · 10-26-2009, 12:53 PM

Dale and Dave - thanks for the info. I compared the photo on the Conn Loyalist site with mine and they are identical except for the bottom caps where mine are slightly flatter on the bottom. Either mine is a later year or else whoever ordered the stencil design specified a different cap.

Dale, when you said this is a cornet and you had a trumpet version, what is the difference other than the MP receiver? I am still trying to figure out which feature makes this a cornet.

veery715 · 10-26-2009, 01:27 PM

I have a very similar horn, labeled Easy Play on the bell. Here shown over an Olds Recording. It has double bracing as opposed to single on the leadpipe, and is a cornet. It plays quite well.

Dale Proctor · 10-26-2009, 01:36 PM

Here are a couple of old (low resolution) digital photos of the trumpet version. The receiver, leadpipe, and bell are all different. Who knows if your cornet is more conical, though.

VetPsychWars · 10-26-2009, 02:12 PM

Definitely a cornet.

I see your receiver ring is split... I wonder if someone jammed a trumpet moutpiece in there at one time.

Tom

Gaucho Viejo · 10-27-2009, 02:18 PM

Remarkably inornate - I like the nice clean lines and the absence of unnecessary "googaws". Attractive from a purely design standpoint and it plays well to boot. Nice find.

ComeBackKid · 10-28-2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VetPsychWars

Definitely a cornet.

Well, I am definitely out-voted on this by Tom, Dale and Veery. But, again, I am wondering why. I measured the bore and it is the same at every point that I measured it although I could only measure the OD of the pipe exiting the 3rd valve, since that is the same as the tuning slide - and all of the other points - I assume the ID is the same as well. It sure seems cylindrical to me.

Quote:

I see your receiver ring is split... I wonder if someone jammed a trumpet moutpiece in there at one time...

That's what it looks like. It still holds the MP securely - both a long shank and short shank cornet MP - but I am planning to have that repaired before I go much further with it.

Thanks again for all of the info from everyone.

VetPsychWars · 10-29-2009, 08:49 AM

The modern trumpet is basically a funny-looking cornet. The difference between the two instruments? A cornet takes a cornet mouthpiece and a trumpet takes a trumpet mouthpiece.

Most cornets have the same diameter tubing throughout the valve block. It's the taper in the mouthpipe and bell that will differentiate your modern cornet and trumpet.

Tom

10-24-2009, 07:30 PM	#1
ComeBackKid Forte User Join Date: May 2009 Location: Yorba Linda, CA Posts: 1,420	Long Cornet or Short Trumpet? I just purchased a vintage horn on a whim. It is in incredible condition (not a single dent or abrasion) and plays wonderfully. It has a very bright, penetrating sound so it seems it would make a good lead horn (using my smallish Conn 4C mouthpiece; It is slightly darker with my old King Cleveland mouthpiece). The engraving on the bell says 'Alcazar - Made in Elkhart, Ind. USA'. I did a search but nothing comes up that seems to relate to this instrument. The guy I bought it from did not know anything. I cannot tell if it is a long cornet or a short trumpet. Here are some details and photos: Reasons to think it is a long cornet... (1) It has the long cornet form factor with an extra turn in the bell tail (2) It is 15 1/2" long from receiver to bell (3) It takes a cornet mouthpiece Reasons to think it is a short trumpet... (1) It sounds like a trumpet (2) It is cylindrical bore (all tuning slides and the bell tail are the same diameter) Other Interesting facts... - It is a ML bore - in fact, all of the slides will exactly interchange with the slides on my Olds Special - It is a smallish bell - only 4 1/2" - It has bottom sprung valves - It has no 3rd valve ring - but it doesn't need one. I tested the intonation from bottom to top on my tuner (I know! I know! but it's the best I can do) and every single note was spot on or easily lipped in without a slide. - It is incredibly open in the upper register. I can briefly hit F above high C - which I can almost never do on any other trumpet and I can sustain D making it sound like a note. I can ply "Let the Bright Seraphim" better on this than anything else I have. What a find!! Anybody ever seen one of these?? Photos: __________________ Come-Back Kid - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Selmer Invicta London (1956) Olds Super (1951, 1963, 1966, 1968) Olds SuperStar (1971) Olds Studio (1970) Olds Special (1951, 1956, 1960, 1962) Olds Ambassador (a few: 1953-1979) Andreas Eastman (new) (+Conn Director, King Cleveland, Holton Collegiate, Blessing, Yamaha, Getzen, Amati, Revelle, Bundy, Alcazar) Last edited by ComeBackKid; 10-24-2009 at 07:37 PM.

10-25-2009, 01:39 AM	#2
Dale Proctor Forte User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 1,219	Re: Long Cornet or Short Trumpet? It's a long cornet, a stencil horn from a major maker, like Conn or Holton. I had a trumpet version of that horn (same valve section, brace design, ferrules, valve caps, finger buttons, etc.) that was labled "Crusader", but the valves were worn out. __________________ Olde Towne Brass www.otbrass.com Brass Band of Huntsville "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

10-25-2009, 09:02 AM	#3
MFfan Forte User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan Posts: 1,876	Re: Long Cornet or Short Trumpet? Looks like a Pan American 90A per photo on Connloyalist. The Conn Loyalist __________________ Dave Rafferty Lemar Trumpet (peashooter-Conn?) 55-56 York Artist Trumpet Besson 609 Trumpet 1955-60 Besson 8-10 Trumpet 1948 Besson cornet 1946 King Master Cornet www.kalamazooconcertband.org

10-26-2009, 12:53 PM	#4
ComeBackKid Forte User Join Date: May 2009 Location: Yorba Linda, CA Posts: 1,420	Re: Long Cornet or Short Trumpet? Dale and Dave - thanks for the info. I compared the photo on the Conn Loyalist site with mine and they are identical except for the bottom caps where mine are slightly flatter on the bottom. Either mine is a later year or else whoever ordered the stencil design specified a different cap. Dale, when you said this is a cornet and you had a trumpet version, what is the difference other than the MP receiver? I am still trying to figure out which feature makes this a cornet. __________________ Come-Back Kid - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Selmer Invicta London (1956) Olds Super (1951, 1963, 1966, 1968) Olds SuperStar (1971) Olds Studio (1970) Olds Special (1951, 1956, 1960, 1962) Olds Ambassador (a few: 1953-1979) Andreas Eastman (new) (+Conn Director, King Cleveland, Holton Collegiate, Blessing, Yamaha, Getzen, Amati, Revelle, Bundy, Alcazar)

10-26-2009, 01:27 PM	#5
veery715 Forte User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ithaca NY Posts: 1,548	Re: Long Cornet or Short Trumpet? I have a very similar horn, labeled Easy Play on the bell. Here shown over an Olds Recording. It has double bracing as opposed to single on the leadpipe, and is a cornet. It plays quite well.

10-26-2009, 01:36 PM	#6
Dale Proctor Forte User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 1,219	Re: Long Cornet or Short Trumpet? Here are a couple of old (low resolution) digital photos of the trumpet version. The receiver, leadpipe, and bell are all different. Who knows if your cornet is more conical, though. __________________ Olde Towne Brass www.otbrass.com Brass Band of Huntsville "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

10-26-2009, 02:12 PM	#7
VetPsychWars Piano User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Greenfield WI Posts: 313	Re: Long Cornet or Short Trumpet? Definitely a cornet. I see your receiver ring is split... I wonder if someone jammed a trumpet moutpiece in there at one time. Tom __________________ 1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet 1939, 1946 Buescher Aristocrat Trumpets 1955 Buescher 400 Cornet Meeuwsen custom 5C-ish mouthpiece Milwaukee Metropolitan Community Concert Band

10-27-2009, 02:18 PM	#8
Gaucho Viejo Banned Pianissimo User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Palouse, Washington Posts: 131	Re: Long Cornet or Short Trumpet? Remarkably inornate - I like the nice clean lines and the absence of unnecessary "googaws". Attractive from a purely design standpoint and it plays well to boot. Nice find.

10-29-2009, 08:49 AM	#10
VetPsychWars Piano User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Greenfield WI Posts: 313	Re: Long Cornet or Short Trumpet? The modern trumpet is basically a funny-looking cornet. The difference between the two instruments? A cornet takes a cornet mouthpiece and a trumpet takes a trumpet mouthpiece. Most cornets have the same diameter tubing throughout the valve block. It's the taper in the mouthpipe and bell that will differentiate your modern cornet and trumpet. Tom __________________ 1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet 1939, 1946 Buescher Aristocrat Trumpets 1955 Buescher 400 Cornet Meeuwsen custom 5C-ish mouthpiece Milwaukee Metropolitan Community Concert Band

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