mangione1

I own a restored a 1914 (ser # 25041) silver Holton "Chicago" New Proportion cornet (with gold wash bell) to playing order after my wife found it in an antique shop. I currently plays in B-flat, but I have read that it can be converted to play in C and/or A (???) by changing tuning slides.

My horn came with replacement slides for first valve, third valve and the slide with spit valve in between the main tuning slide and third slide. Unfornately, it appears to be missing the slide for the second valve (littlest one).

I would like to know:
- where would I go about finding my missing slide
- how do I change the key using those four slides (what combination do I use, do they need to be inserted in any special way)
- what keys can I actually play in with those slides (is it really A or just a low B-flat)

I would appreciate any info you could provide. You can email me at grphug4@gmail.com or post a response (this is my first post, so if I am breaking protocol by including my email address, I apologize).

I have no intentions of selling it - it is a real treasure that I enjoy playing in summer band when we play music of that period.

Thanks,
Brian

wjenglish

Brian:

Since I see no one has attempted to answer your question about your Holton cornet in the past 4 days since you posted it, I will take a stab at a couple of aspects, but I hasten to add that I don't pose myself as any kind of authority. Cornets of the vintage you are describing often had little lead pipe extensions to permit lowering the pitch of the instrument from Bb to A. The extension would just go in the lead pipe before inserting the mouthpiece, extending the length of tubing by a few centimenters. As you probably know, adding that much length throws the notes made by depressing valves out of pitch enough that a trained ear will notice. What it sounds like to me is that the piece of tubing that is not for the first or third valve slides is the one that (in this particular model of cornet) adds this extra length to lower the pitch to A. The 2nd valve slide is so short that it usually doesn't need much correction factor, so there probably never was a slide for it. The first and third valve slides just help to retune those valves for the change in pitch from Bb to A. This is all interesting, but not of much use because in today's world one only encounters an occasional piece to play in A when playing very old scores (old ragtime and civil war era pieces).

If anyone else has knowledge of your Holton instrument which runs counter to my thoughts, I glady stand corrected.

Wes English
Director, Marco Island Strummers

mangione1

Thanks for your reply. Here are some pics of my cornet and the case. The pics show the tuning slides that I do have and the "void" in the case (see the close up) that appears to be missing something (if not another tuning slide).

DSCF1819.JPG

DSCF1820.JPG

DSCF1822.JPG

DSCF1823.JPG

DSCF1824.JPG

I do not see a place in the case to hold a lead pipe extender (I am familiar with those - my pic has one); so I'm convinced that I have all but the one that fits in that void.

Any other ideas out there?

Thanks,
Brian

wjenglish

Brian:

This is a really interesting thread for me. The photos are a great help (though a close up side view of all the slides showing where they enter the valve casings would be even better). But there is no doubt that you are correct that you seem to be missing the second valve slide. The empty spot in the case is just the right size for one. I can't recall seeing exactly the configuration of slides that you have on your horn. The extra slide (which I don't have on my cornet) must be the one that adds extra length (or takes length away if it really can be changed from Bb to C). If no one on TM volunteers that he has exactly the slide you need, I wonder if you could get a present day trumpet manufacturer to make one for you.

Wes English

mangione1

Here are three more pics of the existing (longer, shinier) and the spare slides, side by side, next to part of cornet in which they reside. I tried replacing all three (could not replace the second valve slide), but the key only dropped a half step and some notes were not in tune. Maybe I am not installing them correctly or the missing slide makes that much difference.

Any other thoughts? Thanks again for your posts.

Brian

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wjenglish

Brian:

The additional photos are helpful, especially the way you have put the two pairs of slides for the 1st and 3rd valve side by side. The slide with the water key on it must be the one which changes the pitch for the entire instrument, while the longer 1st and 3rd valve slides help to bring some of the valved notes into pitch once the open notes are set to the key of A with the longer of the two slides with the water key on them.

When you use all the shortest slides, do you find the instrument is in Bb or C? I am skeptical that it can be tuned to C.

Wes

mangione1

When I put all of the replacement slides in, a "B" on my cornet matched a "C" on my B-flat - that is, it only changed the pitch by a half step (and not all the notes were in tune). I tried putting the existing slides back in but pulling them all out half way to see if it would drop the pitch to "A" - no dice.

However, I found this site that shows a differently shaped tuning slide that replaces both the main tuning slide and the third-valve spit-valve (shorter) tuning slide:

Holton New Proportion Cornet Outfit

I wonder if that is the slide that I am missing to change it to "C". I still wonder how to use my existing slides (and how important the second valve slide that I am missing is), unless they are used in combination with the one shown on that site.

I may just have to contact Holton directly or some university that has more experience with these horns. I greatly appreciate your insight.

Brian

tom turner

Hi,

You have a normal, Holton New Proportion for that era. It does not tune to C cornet, nor is the extra set of slides to lower the pitch to A.

Instead, the extra pair of slides also put the horn in either Bb "High Pitch" or Bb "Low Pitch." Let me explain . . .

Back in that era, just before WWI, the brass band world was getting away from the old standard pitch (called "High Pitch"), where an A = 454 Hz. Instead, a huge push was underway to adopt an international pitch center that would be honored by all makers . . . and the proposed pitch was nearly a full 1/2 step LOWER, at A = 440 Hz!

Strangely, one of the few lasting things we got out of the League of Nations just after WWI was the adoption of A = 440 Hz as a universal pitch center!!!! This had been pushed by some since the turn of the twentieth century . . . so that people wouldn't buy horns that couldn't be tuned with all ensembles. Believe me, getting all makers to FINALLY make instruments that could be played together was a huge economic and political task!!!

Thus, most new horns at this time of manufacture (just prior WWI) were finally pitched in today's standard pitch (back then called Low Pitch, or LP for short).

Sure, theoretically, any HP cornet COULD be tuned to LP, IF the player pulled out his tuning slide much further AND also knew the exact mathematical ratio to pull out each valve's slide, in proportion to all three of 'em.

However, most folks couldn't figure this out successfully so makers started including two full sets of slides in the case. The main LP slides would be used in community and school bands as well as modern performance groups, yet the HP slide set would allow the horn to be played in ensembles of old geezers still playing, and tuning at High Pitch!

My suggestion, use the set of longer slides and your horn will tune perfectly to today's pitch, and save your HP set in the case to maintain your horn's greater value at having both sets.

Sadly, since you don't know which 2nd valve slide you have stuck in the horn, this could throw off your intonation of any note using 2nd valve in any fingering combination.

IF the 2nd valve slide is the HP slide, it would be great if you can have your trusted horn technician to pull the slide. Re-lube this slide and, if needed, pull it out slightly.

HOPE THIS HELPS!!!

Tom

PS: BTW, I believe that Holton also grooved a ring on the part of the valve slides that is usually not seen when they are pushed in. If your horn has these "rings," this indicates the correct pull of the valve slides to lower your cornet to an "A" cornet. Again, using the correct set, in either HP or LP.

Also, the tuning slides would also probably be grooved with a ring showing you how much further to pull it. In the case of a tuning slide, it is quite a long pull to lower the horn to A from Bb.

PPS: Your horn has a gold-wash inner bell, applied over bright silverplate. DO NOT polish this thin gold layer with silver polish or you'll soon lighten it until the gold is buffed off. Instead, just rinse that part down lightly when you silver polish the rest, and then gently pat down the gold inner bell with a soft cotton cloth. That's all you have to do with a gold wash bell!

wjenglish

Tom Turner's post on the New Proportion tuning slides seems to have the real information. Thank you, Tom.

Wes English

tom turner

Hi,

You are very welcome!

Holton made some fine horns back then, and I'm sure your New Proportion will play pretty well in tune with the longer set of slides. It should play very well if the valves have great compression and a valve alignment too.

Glad to help. Feel free to contact me at any time with any questions that might pop up.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner