Newbie with Oldie horn :-) - Page 2

ComeBackKid · 10-24-2009, 08:10 PM

Well, Piperjon - you really touched a hot spot on this forum. There are literally hundreds of threads on...
Olds Ambassadors, stripping lacquer, polishing, dent-removal, Fullerton vs LA, what type of mouthpiece, etc, etc. I know - because I wrote many of them myself.

There are many Olds aficionados here and I am one of them (see my signature block). I can give you a lot of details about how to approach your horn as almost all of mine (Olds as well as the other models) have gone through the same thing. But, many of the members here bristle when I post one of my technical treatises again so I'll just say two things. (1) The "Early Fullerton" (1955-1958) Ambassadors are identical to the LA models in every way except the engraving (which is good!). (2) The materials you mentioned are fine for the job of cleaning up the horn. If you take the trumpet apart and set the valves aside and put the rest in a tub of boiling water, the remaining lacquer will come off like a sheet of cellophane. It is much better and easier than using a chemical stripper. Otherwise, if you have other questions or would like to see some before-and-after photos of my Olds dumpster refugees, send me a PM with your email and I will send you all you can handle without boring the others here.

Good luck on your fun project.

PiperJon · 10-24-2009, 08:32 PM

Excellent! You will hear a PM from me directly, I'd love to see pix. And yes, I do think I'll be taking the boiling-water approach, yee-yimminy, it's working my fingers to the BONE. And that ain't TROMbone, either. When I give this thing a good bath, I understand removing the valves, no bath for them, and to disassemble it, but should I remove the moisture valve corks? They seem in really good condition (pressure blow in the removed slide yielded NO escape of air), and I don't want to mess them up.

ComeBackKid · 10-24-2009, 08:41 PM

I've never removed the corks and have never had them go bad. But, if they do, it means they needed to be replaced - a very easy thing to do.

PiperJon · 10-30-2009, 03:19 PM

Okay, for anyone who may be interested, here are the before and after pix of the work I did on my horn. And as a bonus, one of the super-secret high-tech weapon of mass cleaning I used to complete it.

I've kept the pix small to protect bandwidth. But even so, the green corrosion is clearly visible in several places. I spent a total of about 6 hours after I soaked the thing in boiling water working on it. I'll have to say that the old laquer did not come off like cellophane, but more like sticky fat dandruff.

I worked for about 3 hours using just microfibre cloths and brasso, until I discovered my super-secret weapon, shown in the last pic. After that, things went much easier, but by then my hands and fingers (read: I have carpal tunnel syndrome) were so ganked up, the job is far from perfect.

And that's okay with me. I've again changed my mind, and I have added no polish or sealant. I'm going to let it go patina'd at it's own rate, so any imperfections that are still there will just become part of its personality. I hope.

Before

After

And here is my secret weapon. I took a length of diamond-braid poly rope, and pulled out the core, leaving only the braided outer layer. I sealed the ends with a lighter, but instead of the traditional round, I squeezed the ends flat so I could fit them between the valves. I kept it wet with Brasso, and worked it around the fittings like one would do when polishing shoes, wrapped around, back and forth. The old lacquer came off nicely, as did the oxidation, the stains, and all. I was able to get easily into areas that I never would have been able to do so otherwise. I should point out that it's about 8" in length, and the grey area in the middle is where most of the action happened. It's been rinsed out and dried for this picture.

I've not seen any writing of someone using a similar technique, but if someone has already discovered this, you get MAJOR PROPS.

And there you have it. If anyone wants to see larger, close up shots, feel free to pm me. They were taken with a dSLR and are about 3.5megs apiece, so there is great detail to be seen for those interested.

Pj

operagost · 10-30-2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiperJon

Greetings all!

To respond to earlier questions, it's a Fullerton. And the comment on not polishing the valves and casings, definitely caution has been heard, I will be leaving those alone. After all, they are working, and why fix what ain't broke.

Oh, and thanks for the tip on the valve guard, I had forgotten I actually had one when I first played way back in 7th grade. It was more to protect my fingers from the cold during Christmas parades. I took a pattern from someone's leather one, and made one out of denim. It was an original, eh? Now that I'm all grown up, though, I'll likely buy a leather one.

To hell with that! I think I'm going to pull out some old work jeans and make myself one tonight!

veery715 · 10-30-2009, 04:31 PM

It looks about like a trumpet now - but I am partial to the old look. Well, don't seal it and it will patina nicely. Dig those braces!

Nice work with the braided line - necessity as they say. I have some elastic bandage -Ace-like - and cut it into pieces for that. I didn't initially soak it in polish, but now I use one over and over which I haven't washed (ewwww) and it still does the job.

Here's my Conn 12B - done that way:

veery

PiperJon · 10-30-2009, 06:02 PM

Yeah, Operagost, since I wrote that, I have asked by gracious and pretty girlfriend to CROCHET me one! She makes the most awesome and functional things that way. I'll definitely post pix when that happens. But I was considering going back to denim too, just for the novelty. And that was back in the day before velcro was widely available, so I put in eyelets and laced it up with a shoestring.

OO, Veery, that looks niiiice. I think I'll like the patina look once it's all said and done, surely more than I like having sore fingers and thumbs. If I never have to smell Brasso again it will be too soon.

Pj

MFfan · 10-30-2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiperJon

Okay, for anyone who may be interested, here are the before and after pix of the work I did on my horn. And as a bonus, one of the super-secret high-tech weapon of mass cleaning I used to complete it.

I've kept the pix small to protect bandwidth. But even so, the green corrosion is clearly visible in several places. I spent a total of about 6 hours after I soaked the thing in boiling water working on it. I'll have to say that the old laquer did not come off like cellophane, but more like sticky fat dandruff.

I worked for about 3 hours using just microfibre cloths and brasso, until I discovered my super-secret weapon, shown in the last pic. After that, things went much easier, but by then my hands and fingers (read: I have carpal tunnel syndrome) were so ganked up, the job is far from perfect.

And that's okay with me. I've again changed my mind, and I have added no polish or sealant. I'm going to let it go patina'd at it's own rate, so any imperfections that are still there will just become part of its personality. I hope.

Before

After

And here is my secret weapon. I took a length of diamond-braid poly rope, and pulled out the core, leaving only the braided outer layer. I sealed the ends with a lighter, but instead of the traditional round, I squeezed the ends flat so I could fit them between the valves. I kept it wet with Brasso, and worked it around the fittings like one would do when polishing shoes, wrapped around, back and forth. The old lacquer came off nicely, as did the oxidation, the stains, and all. I was able to get easily into areas that I never would have been able to do so otherwise. I should point out that it's about 8" in length, and the grey area in the middle is where most of the action happened. It's been rinsed out and dried for this picture.

I've not seen any writing of someone using a similar technique, but if someone has already discovered this, you get MAJOR PROPS.

And there you have it. If anyone wants to see larger, close up shots, feel free to pm me. They were taken with a dSLR and are about 3.5megs apiece, so there is great detail to be seen for those interested.

Pj

About what is the length and diameter of the poly rope? Where can you get it? My King Master still has areas of baked on lacquer I would like to remove from those areas. Thanks!

PiperJon · 10-30-2009, 09:01 PM

It was about 8-10 inches long, somewhere around there. Long enough to get good action, but not so long that there's all kinds of excess rope around. And I think this is 3/8" poly, but really any diamond-braid would do. Once you pull the core out, it lays flat, and the braid itself provides not only a host for the brass polish, but a bit of scrubbing action as well. If you used a larger diameter rope, I doubt it would cause any problems, in fact, it would give you more surface area with which to work. Just be sure to seal those ends with a little bit of fire, and smoosh them flat while still hot. I use my fingers, but I'm an idiot. Pliers work well and don't cause nasty burns.

According to Lehigh rope website:
"Three general categories of braided construction exist: diamond braid with a core, diamond braid without a core (called hollow braid) and solid braid. Diamond braid is manufactured by weaving ends of yarn over and under, the same fashion in which the maypole dance is done. If there is a core around which the rope is braided it cannot be spliced. If no core exists, the rope is called "hollow braid". "

You want diamond braid with a core, so you can pull that core out. This is easily found at home stores like Lowes or Home Depot in the US, or even WalMart and Target. Usually a few bucks for 100 feet.

Pj

ComeBackKid · 10-31-2009, 05:44 AM

Quote:

By: PiperJon - "And here is my secret weapon. I took a length of diamond-braid poly rope, and pulled out the core, leaving only the braided outer layer. I sealed the ends with a lighter, but instead of the traditional round, I squeezed the ends flat so I could fit them between the valves. I kept it wet with Brasso, and worked it around the fittings like one would do when polishing shoes, wrapped around, back and forth. The old lacquer came off nicely, as did the oxidation, the stains, and all. I was able to get easily into areas that I never would have been able to do so otherwise. I should point out that it's about 8" in length, and the grey area in the middle is where most of the action happened. It's been rinsed out and dried for this picture."

See? Who said newbies can't contribute anything?

Anyway, PiperJon, I wound up being gone all week and didn't have a chance to send you the photos via PM so here are a couple that I have handy until I can gather some better closeups. These were all pretty gungy to start with but were given the "bath" and then were hand-polished using various materials (including Brasso, Tarn-X, Mother's metal polish, Rubbing compound and even Meguiar's Cleaner Wax (from an auto store). I have also heard that Maas metal polish is good but have not found any yet. I just used cloths but will try your braided rope idea.
====BEFORE====

====AFTER====

10-24-2009, 08:10 PM	#11
ComeBackKid Forte User Join Date: May 2009 Location: Yorba Linda, CA Posts: 1,005	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) Well, Piperjon - you really touched a hot spot on this forum. There are literally hundreds of threads on... Olds Ambassadors, stripping lacquer, polishing, dent-removal, Fullerton vs LA, what type of mouthpiece, etc, etc. I know - because I wrote many of them myself. There are many Olds aficionados here and I am one of them (see my signature block). I can give you a lot of details about how to approach your horn as almost all of mine (Olds as well as the other models) have gone through the same thing. But, many of the members here bristle when I post one of my technical treatises again so I'll just say two things. (1) The "Early Fullerton" (1955-1958) Ambassadors are identical to the LA models in every way except the engraving (which is good!). (2) The materials you mentioned are fine for the job of cleaning up the horn. If you take the trumpet apart and set the valves aside and put the rest in a tub of boiling water, the remaining lacquer will come off like a sheet of cellophane. It is much better and easier than using a chemical stripper. Otherwise, if you have other questions or would like to see some before-and-after photos of my Olds dumpster refugees, send me a PM with your email and I will send you all you can handle without boring the others here. Good luck on your fun project. __________________ Come-Back Kid - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Selmer Invicta London (T) Olds SuperStar (T) Olds Super (2T) Olds Special (2T+C) Olds Ambassador (9T+7C) Andreas Eastman (2T) Conn Director (T+C) King Cleveland Superior (T+C) Holton (T602+C605 Shep Crk) Holton Collegiate (T+C) Blessing (T+C) Yamaha (T+C) Getzen 300 Amati ATR213 (+Revelle, Bundy, Alcazar, & ?)

10-24-2009, 08:32 PM	#12
PiperJon New Friend Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 22	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) Excellent! You will hear a PM from me directly, I'd love to see pix. And yes, I do think I'll be taking the boiling-water approach, yee-yimminy, it's working my fingers to the BONE. And that ain't TROMbone, either. When I give this thing a good bath, I understand removing the valves, no bath for them, and to disassemble it, but should I remove the moisture valve corks? They seem in really good condition (pressure blow in the removed slide yielded NO escape of air), and I don't want to mess them up.

10-24-2009, 08:41 PM	#13
ComeBackKid Forte User Join Date: May 2009 Location: Yorba Linda, CA Posts: 1,005	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) I've never removed the corks and have never had them go bad. But, if they do, it means they needed to be replaced - a very easy thing to do. __________________ Come-Back Kid - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Selmer Invicta London (T) Olds SuperStar (T) Olds Super (2T) Olds Special (2T+C) Olds Ambassador (9T+7C) Andreas Eastman (2T) Conn Director (T+C) King Cleveland Superior (T+C) Holton (T602+C605 Shep Crk) Holton Collegiate (T+C) Blessing (T+C) Yamaha (T+C) Getzen 300 Amati ATR213 (+Revelle, Bundy, Alcazar, & ?)

10-30-2009, 03:19 PM	#14
PiperJon New Friend Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 22	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) Okay, for anyone who may be interested, here are the before and after pix of the work I did on my horn. And as a bonus, one of the super-secret high-tech weapon of mass cleaning I used to complete it. I've kept the pix small to protect bandwidth. But even so, the green corrosion is clearly visible in several places. I spent a total of about 6 hours after I soaked the thing in boiling water working on it. I'll have to say that the old laquer did not come off like cellophane, but more like sticky fat dandruff. I worked for about 3 hours using just microfibre cloths and brasso, until I discovered my super-secret weapon, shown in the last pic. After that, things went much easier, but by then my hands and fingers (read: I have carpal tunnel syndrome) were so ganked up, the job is far from perfect. And that's okay with me. I've again changed my mind, and I have added no polish or sealant. I'm going to let it go patina'd at it's own rate, so any imperfections that are still there will just become part of its personality. I hope. Before After And here is my secret weapon. I took a length of diamond-braid poly rope, and pulled out the core, leaving only the braided outer layer. I sealed the ends with a lighter, but instead of the traditional round, I squeezed the ends flat so I could fit them between the valves. I kept it wet with Brasso, and worked it around the fittings like one would do when polishing shoes, wrapped around, back and forth. The old lacquer came off nicely, as did the oxidation, the stains, and all. I was able to get easily into areas that I never would have been able to do so otherwise. I should point out that it's about 8" in length, and the grey area in the middle is where most of the action happened. It's been rinsed out and dried for this picture. I've not seen any writing of someone using a similar technique, but if someone has already discovered this, you get MAJOR PROPS. And there you have it. If anyone wants to see larger, close up shots, feel free to pm me. They were taken with a dSLR and are about 3.5megs apiece, so there is great detail to be seen for those interested. Pj

10-30-2009, 04:31 PM	#16
veery715 Forte User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ithaca NY Posts: 1,433	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) It looks about like a trumpet now - but I am partial to the old look. Well, don't seal it and it will patina nicely. Dig those braces! Nice work with the braided line - necessity as they say. I have some elastic bandage -Ace-like - and cut it into pieces for that. I didn't initially soak it in polish, but now I use one over and over which I haven't washed (ewwww) and it still does the job. Here's my Conn 12B - done that way: veery

10-30-2009, 06:02 PM	#17
PiperJon New Friend Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 22	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) Yeah, Operagost, since I wrote that, I have asked by gracious and pretty girlfriend to CROCHET me one! She makes the most awesome and functional things that way. I'll definitely post pix when that happens. But I was considering going back to denim too, just for the novelty. And that was back in the day before velcro was widely available, so I put in eyelets and laced it up with a shoestring. OO, Veery, that looks niiiice. I think I'll like the patina look once it's all said and done, surely more than I like having sore fingers and thumbs. If I never have to smell Brasso again it will be too soon. Pj

10-30-2009, 09:01 PM	#19
PiperJon New Friend Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 22	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) It was about 8-10 inches long, somewhere around there. Long enough to get good action, but not so long that there's all kinds of excess rope around. And I think this is 3/8" poly, but really any diamond-braid would do. Once you pull the core out, it lays flat, and the braid itself provides not only a host for the brass polish, but a bit of scrubbing action as well. If you used a larger diameter rope, I doubt it would cause any problems, in fact, it would give you more surface area with which to work. Just be sure to seal those ends with a little bit of fire, and smoosh them flat while still hot. I use my fingers, but I'm an idiot. Pliers work well and don't cause nasty burns. According to Lehigh rope website: "Three general categories of braided construction exist: diamond braid with a core, diamond braid without a core (called hollow braid) and solid braid. Diamond braid is manufactured by weaving ends of yarn over and under, the same fashion in which the maypole dance is done. If there is a core around which the rope is braided it cannot be spliced. If no core exists, the rope is called "hollow braid". " You want diamond braid with a core, so you can pull that core out. This is easily found at home stores like Lowes or Home Depot in the US, or even WalMart and Target. Usually a few bucks for 100 feet. Pj

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