Newbie with Oldie horn :-)

PiperJon · 10-22-2009, 07:07 PM

Greetings, trumpeteers!

I'll likely post a longer intro in the appropriate forum, but due to time constraints (I'm at work...shhh!), I'll start here.

I first played trumpet waaay back in beginning band, 7th grade, went on to low brass the rest of the time. A few years ago, I bought a hunka-junk trumpet to play with when the mood strikes, and that mood recently struck.

It's a ghastly looking thing I got at a thrift store, practically no finish, some line-dents in the bell, and it's got some green oxidation in a few places. But, even in the hands of a has-been like myself, it actually has a nice sound, fairly round and mellow. It feels pretty big bore, but then again, I've not played in (ahem) a couple of years, give or take three decades. Plus.

In researching this old bucket, what I have is an Olds Ambassador, made about 1955. I know, it's no 'recording model,' or anything, but still, it's a nice old horn, despite being so haintly looking.

My post today is about reconditioning. I'm willing to put aside my die-hard DIY personality traits if it would be worth it to make this horn presentable in public. I'm also willing to take on SOME, but not all of the problems, if it appears as though it would save me a nickel. Mostly, it will need stripping, un-corroding, , un-denting, relaquering probably some buffing of the inside of the valves and chambers (some vertical scratching observed on valve bodies), new pads on valves, new corks on moisture valves. And the mouthpiece was probably put on with a sledgehammer. On the plus side, the springs are okay-ish, it took to oiling pretty dang well, and the tuning slides move, but with effort, but at least they move. Valve button pearls are intact, lower valve caps are removable. All that is the best case scenario.

That said, I'd really just be happy with a strip job, a relaquer, and a dent removal, the rest is gravy. (I can do the tuning slides and probably even gently buff the valves, if I were to get some advice on how to do so without ruining them...). And I think I can handle the pads and corks.

I'm interested in feedback of and and all kinds. Since it's playable already and just butt-ugly, is it worth it? I'm also interested in anyone's experience with a similar train wreck, and any bits of advice, short of throwing the thing under a passing truck, would be very appreciated.

Happiest of tunes to all, this is a GREAT site!

Pj

P.S. - Was just looking at another site which recommends NOT re-laquering it at all, in favor of polished raw brass. It stated re-laquering can and often does change the sound of the horn. I'm not opposed to this, if someone can direct me to a) stripping instructions b) polishing instructions and c) care and upkeep instructions that prevent d) green fingers!

Peej

Gaucho Viejo · 10-22-2009, 07:30 PM

No need to throw it under a truck - the Ambassador's a pretty reliable, even good horn. The 1955 version: is that Los Angeles or Fullerton? Either way, the best thing you might do is just clean the bejeebers out of it (lots of descriptions of how best to do that archived here), oil the valves, grease the slides, have the mouthpiece removed by a tech . . . and play it a bunch to get comfortable with it. As for removing dents and re-lacquering it: if the dents aren't so big they're affecting the air flow you don't need to address them (unless it really bothers you) and those Ambassadors take on a real warm patina if you just remove the remaining lacquer (also described in great detail here) and let it age gracefully (like yourself). If you long for the shiny brass look then remove the lacquer, polish with Brasso (or the like) and a bunch of elbow grease - then wax with a good car wax. When you get done with whatever you decide be sure and post pictures so we can see what you find under those years of neglect.

PiperJon · 10-22-2009, 07:38 PM

Hmm.. You know, I don't really know if it's LA or Fullerton, the green yakk is somewhat obscuring the engraving on the bell. I'll definitely take a longer look in better light, though, that's for sure. Thanks for the direction on looking for archives, when I originally posted I'd not seen much covering this, but have seen a couple more posts, so I'll have to take some more time and see what I can find. The dents are only on the bell, so there is no airflow issue, in fact, it feels very open to me. And no, I'm more interested in the sound than the look, but at the same time, I don't want to walk around with green fingers, either. I like the idea of removing the laquer, and will look for that info. Hopefully I can find some things that will help me address the green scabby looking crud, too.

Oh, yes, pictures. I think I will take a few 'before' and some along the way, all the while working to get my trumpet embrocure back! (I have a great didgeridoo embrochure, though, so at least there's that... )

Thanks for the reply, Gaucho!

Pj

Gaucho Viejo · 10-22-2009, 07:43 PM

Do you, typically, play Classical, Soul or Jazz didgeridoo? My preference has always been for the Indo-Funk D'doo - but then that's just me. Welcome to Trumpetmaster, by the way.

Tim

kcmt01 · 10-22-2009, 08:56 PM

If the dents are only in the bell, the tech will probably roll them out for free when he removes the mouthpiece. Clean the snot out of it (probably literally), polish it up and you will have a sweet axe. Alternate your jazz solos with the didgeridoo and you'll have a unique sound! And if you do, be sure to post video.

PiperJon · 10-23-2009, 02:31 AM

Man, you trumpet folks ROCK! I actually play a mostly traditional didgeridoo, but have done some fusion work in adding it to local indie rock and have played backing on some jazz tracks, just messing around at home wise, nothing professional. However, the idea of playing Jazz Didge and Jazz Trumpet, well, let me just say mmmMMMMmmm!!!

I'm going to start working on my horn tomorrow, and I'll post pix soon. And video of some didge-trumpet fusion, when I get my dang chops back. Thanks for the tip, too about having the tech take care of the dents.

Oh, and yeah, ECCCH. I pulled off the main tuning slide, and I won't EVEN get into what was inside. I wish it was only snot. Let's just leave it at "who ya gonna call..."

Ursa · 10-23-2009, 05:12 AM

A '55 Olds could be either an Los Angeles or Fullerton model. Either way, you have a keeper that's very much worth fixing!

Get your trumpet chemically cleaned when you take it in for mouthpiece removal. You should be able to have this done and have the trumpet put into good playing condition for well under $100.

One you've cleaned up the brass, you might want to put a leather valve guard around the valve block to keep your left hand from turning green, if you're prone to having that happen. I really like the Pro-Tec velcro valve guards; they look great, feel luxurious, and cost around $10.

Indian · 10-23-2009, 02:36 PM

Welcome to TM, you have a keeper for sure. I agree do a cheap de-denting and polish.

However, DO NOT POLISH THE VALVES AND CASINGS !!!!!!!!!

You will do more damage than good. The valves are probably fine and if they aren't polising them won't help. Take it to a technician and get his advice.

PiperJon · 10-24-2009, 02:53 PM

Greetings all!

To respond to earlier questions, it's a Fullerton. And the comment on not polishing the valves and casings, definitely caution has been heard, I will be leaving those alone. After all, they are working, and why fix what ain't broke.

Oh, and thanks for the tip on the valve guard, I had forgotten I actually had one when I first played way back in 7th grade. It was more to protect my fingers from the cold during Christmas parades. I took a pattern from someone's leather one, and made one out of denim. It was an original, eh? Now that I'm all grown up, though, I'll likely buy a leather one.

I've started work on the outside of the horn, and I've changed my idea slightly. I'm going to strip it of it's laquer, shine it up, give it a little protection with car wax, and THEN let it patina. That way, I can see which I like better. Right now, I like the idea of raw patina'd old-school look, but I can be very indecisive and my mind can change drastically over time, and this will give me time to see which I like better.

Aggravation, though. I couldn't find Brasso (of all things!) at Wal Mart, got Weiman brass polish. Couldn't find Maas, went with Nu-Finish. So, it's go with da flow time.

And very interesting, the laquer and funk is coming off the top of the horn easier than the bottom. Were we in a marching band in the past, exposed to direct, overhead sunlight? My bet is, yes.

Me and my as-yet-unnamed horn will be going to loverly Independent Music next week for mouthpiece removal. It feels really shallow, and I may want a different one. Then again, when you consider that the only other lip-reed aerophone I've played for the last 30 years is the didge, ANYthing would be considered shallow. So, I won't be making that change for some time to come.

Happiest!

Pj

dizzyizzy · 10-24-2009, 06:11 PM

For "fixing" whats wrong...and even refinishing it...IF you so desire....I recommend Tom Green of Green's Buffing. GREAT guy, GREAT work...fairly economical.

I've had horns worked on by all the "usual" list of excellent technicians/artists...Charlie Melk, Dr. Valve, Rich Ita, etc. Green is in the same category. As with those other guys...he ENJOYS his work and takes pride in it.

Call him to discuss. Green is (574) 875-8231; Tom Green / Green's Buffing / 59598 Park Side Drive, Elkhart IN 46517

Dizzyizzy

10-22-2009, 07:07 PM	#1
PiperJon New Friend Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 22	Newbie with Oldie horn :-) Greetings, trumpeteers! I'll likely post a longer intro in the appropriate forum, but due to time constraints (I'm at work...shhh!), I'll start here. I first played trumpet waaay back in beginning band, 7th grade, went on to low brass the rest of the time. A few years ago, I bought a hunka-junk trumpet to play with when the mood strikes, and that mood recently struck. It's a ghastly looking thing I got at a thrift store, practically no finish, some line-dents in the bell, and it's got some green oxidation in a few places. But, even in the hands of a has-been like myself, it actually has a nice sound, fairly round and mellow. It feels pretty big bore, but then again, I've not played in (ahem) a couple of years, give or take three decades. Plus. In researching this old bucket, what I have is an Olds Ambassador, made about 1955. I know, it's no 'recording model,' or anything, but still, it's a nice old horn, despite being so haintly looking. My post today is about reconditioning. I'm willing to put aside my die-hard DIY personality traits if it would be worth it to make this horn presentable in public. I'm also willing to take on SOME, but not all of the problems, if it appears as though it would save me a nickel. Mostly, it will need stripping, un-corroding, , un-denting, relaquering probably some buffing of the inside of the valves and chambers (some vertical scratching observed on valve bodies), new pads on valves, new corks on moisture valves. And the mouthpiece was probably put on with a sledgehammer. On the plus side, the springs are okay-ish, it took to oiling pretty dang well, and the tuning slides move, but with effort, but at least they move. Valve button pearls are intact, lower valve caps are removable. All that is the best case scenario. That said, I'd really just be happy with a strip job, a relaquer, and a dent removal, the rest is gravy. (I can do the tuning slides and probably even gently buff the valves, if I were to get some advice on how to do so without ruining them...). And I think I can handle the pads and corks. I'm interested in feedback of and and all kinds. Since it's playable already and just butt-ugly, is it worth it? I'm also interested in anyone's experience with a similar train wreck, and any bits of advice, short of throwing the thing under a passing truck, would be very appreciated. Happiest of tunes to all, this is a GREAT site! Pj P.S. - Was just looking at another site which recommends NOT re-laquering it at all, in favor of polished raw brass. It stated re-laquering can and often does change the sound of the horn. I'm not opposed to this, if someone can direct me to a) stripping instructions b) polishing instructions and c) care and upkeep instructions that prevent d) green fingers! Peej Last edited by PiperJon; 10-22-2009 at 07:23 PM.

10-22-2009, 07:30 PM	#2
Gaucho Viejo Pianissimo User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Palouse, Washington Posts: 106	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) No need to throw it under a truck - the Ambassador's a pretty reliable, even good horn. The 1955 version: is that Los Angeles or Fullerton? Either way, the best thing you might do is just clean the bejeebers out of it (lots of descriptions of how best to do that archived here), oil the valves, grease the slides, have the mouthpiece removed by a tech . . . and play it a bunch to get comfortable with it. As for removing dents and re-lacquering it: if the dents aren't so big they're affecting the air flow you don't need to address them (unless it really bothers you) and those Ambassadors take on a real warm patina if you just remove the remaining lacquer (also described in great detail here) and let it age gracefully (like yourself). If you long for the shiny brass look then remove the lacquer, polish with Brasso (or the like) and a bunch of elbow grease - then wax with a good car wax. When you get done with whatever you decide be sure and post pictures so we can see what you find under those years of neglect. __________________ “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven” - Matthew 6:1

10-22-2009, 07:38 PM	#3
PiperJon New Friend Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 22	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) Hmm.. You know, I don't really know if it's LA or Fullerton, the green yakk is somewhat obscuring the engraving on the bell. I'll definitely take a longer look in better light, though, that's for sure. Thanks for the direction on looking for archives, when I originally posted I'd not seen much covering this, but have seen a couple more posts, so I'll have to take some more time and see what I can find. The dents are only on the bell, so there is no airflow issue, in fact, it feels very open to me. And no, I'm more interested in the sound than the look, but at the same time, I don't want to walk around with green fingers, either. I like the idea of removing the laquer, and will look for that info. Hopefully I can find some things that will help me address the green scabby looking crud, too. Oh, yes, pictures. I think I will take a few 'before' and some along the way, all the while working to get my trumpet embrocure back! (I have a great didgeridoo embrochure, though, so at least there's that... ) Thanks for the reply, Gaucho! Pj

10-22-2009, 07:43 PM	#4
Gaucho Viejo Pianissimo User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Palouse, Washington Posts: 106	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) Do you, typically, play Classical, Soul or Jazz didgeridoo? My preference has always been for the Indo-Funk D'doo - but then that's just me. Welcome to Trumpetmaster, by the way. Tim __________________ “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven” - Matthew 6:1

10-22-2009, 08:56 PM	#5
kcmt01 Pianissimo User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Polson, MT Posts: 81	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) If the dents are only in the bell, the tech will probably roll them out for free when he removes the mouthpiece. Clean the snot out of it (probably literally), polish it up and you will have a sweet axe. Alternate your jazz solos with the didgeridoo and you'll have a unique sound! And if you do, be sure to post video.

10-23-2009, 02:31 AM	#6
PiperJon New Friend Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 22	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) Man, you trumpet folks ROCK! I actually play a mostly traditional didgeridoo, but have done some fusion work in adding it to local indie rock and have played backing on some jazz tracks, just messing around at home wise, nothing professional. However, the idea of playing Jazz Didge and Jazz Trumpet, well, let me just say mmmMMMMmmm!!! I'm going to start working on my horn tomorrow, and I'll post pix soon. And video of some didge-trumpet fusion, when I get my dang chops back. Thanks for the tip, too about having the tech take care of the dents. Oh, and yeah, ECCCH. I pulled off the main tuning slide, and I won't EVEN get into what was inside. I wish it was only snot. Let's just leave it at "who ya gonna call..."

10-23-2009, 05:12 AM	#7
Ursa Pianissimo User Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 184	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) A '55 Olds could be either an Los Angeles or Fullerton model. Either way, you have a keeper that's very much worth fixing! Get your trumpet chemically cleaned when you take it in for mouthpiece removal. You should be able to have this done and have the trumpet put into good playing condition for well under $100. One you've cleaned up the brass, you might want to put a leather valve guard around the valve block to keep your left hand from turning green, if you're prone to having that happen. I really like the Pro-Tec velcro valve guards; they look great, feel luxurious, and cost around $10. __________________ Ursa's collection of fine brasswinds... Besson BE709 Trumpet Conn 20B Trumpet - small bore E. K. Blessing XL-CR Short Cornet Frank Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet, Copper/Nickel bell Frank Holton Super Collegiate Cornet, Rose Brass/Nickel bell Frank Holton Collegiate Cornet Yamaha YEP-321S Euphonium Frank Holton 6/4 EEb Tuba

10-23-2009, 02:36 PM	#8
Indian Pianissimo User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 242	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) Welcome to TM, you have a keeper for sure. I agree do a cheap de-denting and polish. However, DO NOT POLISH THE VALVES AND CASINGS !!!!!!!!! You will do more damage than good. The valves are probably fine and if they aren't polising them won't help. Take it to a technician and get his advice. __________________ Rob, King Liberty SilverTone (3) King Liberty (7) Super 20 (2) Conn Vocabell 40A - 40B - 80A (6) - 81A (1) - 38A Victor (2) - 22B - 16B, 12B Coprion bell Getzen Tone Balanced Super Deluxe Holton French LeBlanc (1) - Al Hirt 550 Olds Studio (1) - Special (1)

10-24-2009, 02:53 PM	#9
PiperJon New Friend Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 22	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) Greetings all! To respond to earlier questions, it's a Fullerton. And the comment on not polishing the valves and casings, definitely caution has been heard, I will be leaving those alone. After all, they are working, and why fix what ain't broke. Oh, and thanks for the tip on the valve guard, I had forgotten I actually had one when I first played way back in 7th grade. It was more to protect my fingers from the cold during Christmas parades. I took a pattern from someone's leather one, and made one out of denim. It was an original, eh? Now that I'm all grown up, though, I'll likely buy a leather one. I've started work on the outside of the horn, and I've changed my idea slightly. I'm going to strip it of it's laquer, shine it up, give it a little protection with car wax, and THEN let it patina. That way, I can see which I like better. Right now, I like the idea of raw patina'd old-school look, but I can be very indecisive and my mind can change drastically over time, and this will give me time to see which I like better. Aggravation, though. I couldn't find Brasso (of all things!) at Wal Mart, got Weiman brass polish. Couldn't find Maas, went with Nu-Finish. So, it's go with da flow time. And very interesting, the laquer and funk is coming off the top of the horn easier than the bottom. Were we in a marching band in the past, exposed to direct, overhead sunlight? My bet is, yes. Me and my as-yet-unnamed horn will be going to loverly Independent Music next week for mouthpiece removal. It feels really shallow, and I may want a different one. Then again, when you consider that the only other lip-reed aerophone I've played for the last 30 years is the didge, ANYthing would be considered shallow. So, I won't be making that change for some time to come. Happiest! Pj

10-24-2009, 06:11 PM	#10
dizzyizzy Pianissimo User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: VA Posts: 101	Re: Newbie with Oldie horn :-) For "fixing" whats wrong...and even refinishing it...IF you so desire....I recommend Tom Green of Green's Buffing. GREAT guy, GREAT work...fairly economical. I've had horns worked on by all the "usual" list of excellent technicians/artists...Charlie Melk, Dr. Valve, Rich Ita, etc. Green is in the same category. As with those other guys...he ENJOYS his work and takes pride in it. Call him to discuss. Green is (574) 875-8231; Tom Green / Green's Buffing / 59598 Park Side Drive, Elkhart IN 46517 Dizzyizzy

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