Old Buescher 400's--Firsthand Accounts?

Brian_88 · 06-21-2009, 05:31 PM

Hello everyone!

First, I'll introduce myself and my horns, then I'll ask my question...
I played trumpet from 4th grade through high school, and now that I'm in college I play mostly for my own enjoyment, though my old band director swears he's going to start an alumni jazz ensemble soon. I started playing on a Chris-Kratt Super Deluxe (made by Huttle in the 60s), and played that all through high school. At some point, my grandmother also gave me the Buescher silver cornet my grandfather played in the 1936 All-State band as a young man. That horn looks beautiful, sounds sweet, but needs its valves replated. The Old's Ambassador was a flea market find. My wonderful girlfriend found that for me two years ago at a flea market and picked it up for $30. My high school band directer had the pinky rest re-soldered, and I cleaned it up internally. Man, can that thing play! I liked it so much that I just sent it to the local music shop to have a complete overhaul. The Buescher Tru-Tone I bought in college on eBay. It's a beautiful silver horn with gold engraving and a gold-wash bell. However, it is the very definition of a "pea-shooter," and doesn't give a very big sound.

So now for the question:

I was wondering if anyone's had personal experience with the old model 400 trumpets, especially 30s-50s. I was wondering if the bore size of the 400 was .458, as that is the only reported bore I've found so far. Also, how well they play and what they could be compared to in terms of playing attributes. I've fallen out of love with my Chris-Kratt and the Ambassador will be used as a backup/jazz group horn. I play mostly big band music, and i like a responsive horn that I don't have to fight with. I've played a Bach Strad before, and i was not as impressed as I thought I would be. My old band director plays a Getzen Super Deluxe, which has a TINY bell, and is maybe just a bit too bright. I'm looking for something with a little presence, not too bright, not too dark, that slots nicely and responds well. I am also a "starving college student" so price is a big factor. Thanks for your help, I've stalked the forum for a while, and you guys are very informative!

VetPsychWars · 06-21-2009, 09:41 PM

You mean one of these?

This is the horn I learned to play on.

It is "heavyweight". If you're used to quick response, etc, don't bother. The tone is very middle of the road; deep, dark, bold down low, and lights up when you push it. Will take a little bit more to light up than any lighter-weight horn you're used to.

There's no gap in these horns, so slotting is all "what slotting"? They play where you tell them to play.

I am using Kelly 5C and Kelly 5B and wow, resonantly nice.

A Schilke 14 is also very nice. Played a Bach 7C in high school and that also played well.

Ignore the bore size, it means squat. The taper in the mouthpipe and the bell will determine how it plays for you.

They're gorgeous horns that aren't for everyone, but they'll take all you can put into them, and quite honestly, it'll take a little work. Interesting anecdote, the guy who gives me lessons brought by his Yamaha and I couldn't play it.

There's just something about these Buescher horns, I hand them to people to play and they're all "hmmmm" but the pitch centers are not where they're used to.

If you have one near to you, by all means try it. If you want something a little more traditional, then I would suggest an early 60s Buescher.

Or something else.

Tom

VetPsychWars · 06-21-2009, 09:48 PM

Hrm. Did I say dead nuts accurate and you can clear a room without trying hard?

I didn't mean to scare you away, just wanted to let you know that this horn doesn't play like you might be used to.

Tom

A.N.A. Mendez · 06-21-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VetPsychWars

You mean one of these?

This is the horn I learned to play on.

It is "heavyweight". If you're used to quick response, etc, don't bother. The tone is very middle of the road; deep, dark, bold down low, and lights up when you push it. Will take a little bit more to light up than any lighter-weight horn you're used to.

There's no gap in these horns, so slotting is all "what slotting"? They play where you tell them to play.

I am using Kelly 5C and Kelly 5B and wow, resonantly nice.

A Schilke 14 is also very nice. Played a Bach 7C in high school and that also played well.

Ignore the bore size, it means squat. The taper in the mouthpipe and the bell will determine how it plays for you.

They're gorgeous horns that aren't for everyone, but they'll take all you can put into them, and quite honestly, it'll take a little work. Interesting anecdote, the guy who gives me lessons brought by his Yamaha and I couldn't play it.

There's just something about these Buescher horns, I hand them to people to play and they're all "hmmmm" but the pitch centers are not where they're used to.

If you have one near to you, by all means try it. If you want something a little more traditional, then I would suggest an early 60s Buescher.

Or something else.

Tom

Boy! Talk about getting the right guy to answer your question!

Brian_88 · 06-21-2009, 10:57 PM

That is a BEAUTIFUL 400! You must have had work done on that if you've had it for a long time... Do you mind me asking what year that horn is?

Thanks for the info on 400s. If I play again with a group, it would most likely be more big-band sets. My favorite trumpet player of all time is Harry James, if that helps you get a feel for the kind of sound I like. My band director's trumpet instructor was the first trumpet for the Harry James band for years, and played with Sinatra. I've had the honor of playing with Skip in some school musicals, and he's truly an inspiration to watch.

Anyway, the long and short of it is that I'm at the point where I'm good enough to appreciate a quality horn, and I'm interested in getting the best sound for my buck. If I bought a 400 like The 400 Buescher Brass Trumpet With Case & Accessories - eBay (item 170345761827 end time Jun-24-09 09:23:27 PDT) or VINTAGE Buescher 400 trumpet - eBay (item 160342704019 end time Jun-24-09 08:49:14 PDT) for less than $250, would that be a good move upward, or is there a better alternative for what I'm planning to use if for?

VetPsychWars · 06-21-2009, 11:41 PM

That one is 1949ish. S/N is 323xxx.

Harry's sound was a combination of his lizard lips and a Parduba mouthpiece.

You won't touch either of those horns for $250, not since you called people's attention to it. Well, you might, but $400ish would be closer to the truth.

See, the thing is, any Buescher horn is a good horn. I have a Model 220 I could sell you tomorrow that would play phenominally well... once you got used to it. Would take a week.

The point is that YOU can play any horn well as long as you practice it and put your heart and soul into it. I play my 400 because that's my grandfather's horn they gave me when I was a kid, and I've only played Bueschers after that. Some people have Conn in their heart and soul. Mendez up there knows and breathes Olds (though the poor sap got distracted by the Committee).

If you like how the Buescher 400 looks (pick the later one, better valves), then play it. It'll take you a while to adjust to where it wants you to center each note, but you can do it. Like I said before, it's a good middle-of-the-road horn that will do just about anything you ask of it and you really can't overblow it... it will take all you can put in, and then some... as long as you're as good as you think.

These guys building the heavyweight horns today, Monette and Harrelson, they use some of the same principles used to build this horn. If that's what you're looking for, go for it.

Tom

Brian_88 · 06-21-2009, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VetPsychWars

See, the thing is, any Buescher horn is a good horn. I have a Model 220 I could sell you tomorrow that would play phenominally well... once you got used to it. Would take a week.

The point is that YOU can play any horn well as long as you practice it and put your heart and soul into it. I play my 400 because that's my grandfather's horn they gave me when I was a kid, and I've only played Bueschers after that. Some people have Conn in their heart and soul. Mendez up there knows and breathes Olds (though the poor sap got distracted by the Committee).

These guys building the heavyweight horns today, Monette and Harrelson, they use some of the same principles used to build this horn. If that's what you're looking for, go for it.

Agreed. I LOVE my old cornet, partly because it was my grandfathers, and partly because it sounds beautiful. It is difficult to play, however. It demands that you pay attention to your support. I'd love to have its valves replated, but since I play more trumpet than cornet, I'd rather pay for a trumpet now and replate the cornet's valves later... I'll be posting pictures of my bueschers and my refurbished ambassador when it gets back from the shop.

VetPsychWars · 06-22-2009, 12:14 AM

Given all that, a Buescher 400 would be fine for you, though others have said that the Ambassador is underrated (never played one). You can't go wrong with a horn that makes you use air support. To this day, I can push all sorts of air just because I learned to play on this 400 I have. What you consider to be "difficult" (mine is too) I consider a "challenge". If nothing else, you'll learn something.

Note well: there are two sizes of Buescher 400. The Model 225 has the "medium large" bore and the Model 224 has the "medium" bore. This pretty much applies to prewar horns; I do not have any knowledge of Model 224 horns being made after WWII.

Casual observers: In the late 50s and 60s, the 400 was redesigned to match the rest of the line. Fine horns, I'm sure (never played one, see other raves on this forum) but not what's pictured above.

Tom

mimic · 06-23-2009, 01:11 AM

I purchased a Buescher 400 on ebay about 2 months ago. Serial #359xxx. Dates it to the late 50's or early 60's. I paid 395 for it and am very satisfied with it. I was playing an Olds Super Recording but decided to retire it, didn't want to put wear and tear on it after getting it redone. The Olds is an unbelievable player so I had some misgivings about the Buescher. Best advice I see on this topic is to give yourself time to get used to it. The Olds was a very free blow and I wasn't ready for the resistance from the 400. I stuck with it and now appreceiate it very much. I don't know what price you'll get one for but let this be a guide for you, Bueschers are (maybe now were) some of the lower priced horns out there. Mine is literally like new, no dings or dents, perfect laquer, and Anderson Plating redone valves. It looks like it was just purchased from a music store in 1960. It's not my perfect fit but it certainly is a good horn.

Brian_88 · 06-27-2009, 01:49 PM

VetPsychWars...

Which of these options would you suggest, knowing as much as you do about these horns:

1) Buescher 400 for $165, needs 2nd valve bottom cap, 2nd valve sticks, SN 370xxx
2) Buescher Super 400 in Very Good condition with case for $625, SN 360xxx
3) Keep watching and waiting for a 40s-50s horn (I like the art-deco engraving on the bell)

06-21-2009, 05:31 PM	#1
Brian_88 New Friend Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 17	Old Buescher 400's--Firsthand Accounts? Hello everyone! First, I'll introduce myself and my horns, then I'll ask my question... I played trumpet from 4th grade through high school, and now that I'm in college I play mostly for my own enjoyment, though my old band director swears he's going to start an alumni jazz ensemble soon. I started playing on a Chris-Kratt Super Deluxe (made by Huttle in the 60s), and played that all through high school. At some point, my grandmother also gave me the Buescher silver cornet my grandfather played in the 1936 All-State band as a young man. That horn looks beautiful, sounds sweet, but needs its valves replated. The Old's Ambassador was a flea market find. My wonderful girlfriend found that for me two years ago at a flea market and picked it up for $30. My high school band directer had the pinky rest re-soldered, and I cleaned it up internally. Man, can that thing play! I liked it so much that I just sent it to the local music shop to have a complete overhaul. The Buescher Tru-Tone I bought in college on eBay. It's a beautiful silver horn with gold engraving and a gold-wash bell. However, it is the very definition of a "pea-shooter," and doesn't give a very big sound. So now for the question: I was wondering if anyone's had personal experience with the old model 400 trumpets, especially 30s-50s. I was wondering if the bore size of the 400 was .458, as that is the only reported bore I've found so far. Also, how well they play and what they could be compared to in terms of playing attributes. I've fallen out of love with my Chris-Kratt and the Ambassador will be used as a backup/jazz group horn. I play mostly big band music, and i like a responsive horn that I don't have to fight with. I've played a Bach Strad before, and i was not as impressed as I thought I would be. My old band director plays a Getzen Super Deluxe, which has a TINY bell, and is maybe just a bit too bright. I'm looking for something with a little presence, not too bright, not too dark, that slots nicely and responds well. I am also a "starving college student" so price is a big factor. Thanks for your help, I've stalked the forum for a while, and you guys are very informative! __________________ -Chris-Kratt Super Deluxe, Mid-60s -Olds Ambassador, Late 60s -Buescher Epoch No. 2 Cornet, 1907 -Buescher Tru-Tone Model 9, 1926 -Buescher Model 400, 1961-62 ------------------------------------ All on a Schilke 13a4a heavyweight

06-21-2009, 09:41 PM	#2
VetPsychWars Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Greenfield WI Posts: 248	Re: Old Buescher 400's--Firsthand Accounts? You mean one of these? This is the horn I learned to play on. It is "heavyweight". If you're used to quick response, etc, don't bother. The tone is very middle of the road; deep, dark, bold down low, and lights up when you push it. Will take a little bit more to light up than any lighter-weight horn you're used to. There's no gap in these horns, so slotting is all "what slotting"? They play where you tell them to play. I am using Kelly 5C and Kelly 5B and wow, resonantly nice. A Schilke 14 is also very nice. Played a Bach 7C in high school and that also played well. Ignore the bore size, it means squat. The taper in the mouthpipe and the bell will determine how it plays for you. They're gorgeous horns that aren't for everyone, but they'll take all you can put into them, and quite honestly, it'll take a little work. Interesting anecdote, the guy who gives me lessons brought by his Yamaha and I couldn't play it. There's just something about these Buescher horns, I hand them to people to play and they're all "hmmmm" but the pitch centers are not where they're used to. If you have one near to you, by all means try it. If you want something a little more traditional, then I would suggest an early 60s Buescher. Or something else. Tom

06-21-2009, 10:57 PM	#5
Brian_88 New Friend Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 17	Re: Old Buescher 400's--Firsthand Accounts? That is a BEAUTIFUL 400! You must have had work done on that if you've had it for a long time... Do you mind me asking what year that horn is? Thanks for the info on 400s. If I play again with a group, it would most likely be more big-band sets. My favorite trumpet player of all time is Harry James, if that helps you get a feel for the kind of sound I like. My band director's trumpet instructor was the first trumpet for the Harry James band for years, and played with Sinatra. I've had the honor of playing with Skip in some school musicals, and he's truly an inspiration to watch. Anyway, the long and short of it is that I'm at the point where I'm good enough to appreciate a quality horn, and I'm interested in getting the best sound for my buck. If I bought a 400 like The 400 Buescher Brass Trumpet With Case & Accessories - eBay (item 170345761827 end time Jun-24-09 09:23:27 PDT) or VINTAGE Buescher 400 trumpet - eBay (item 160342704019 end time Jun-24-09 08:49:14 PDT) for less than $250, would that be a good move upward, or is there a better alternative for what I'm planning to use if for? __________________ -Chris-Kratt Super Deluxe, Mid-60s -Olds Ambassador, Late 60s -Buescher Epoch No. 2 Cornet, 1907 -Buescher Tru-Tone Model 9, 1926 -Buescher Model 400, 1961-62 ------------------------------------ All on a Schilke 13a4a heavyweight

06-21-2009, 11:41 PM	#6
VetPsychWars Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Greenfield WI Posts: 248	Re: Old Buescher 400's--Firsthand Accounts? That one is 1949ish. S/N is 323xxx. Harry's sound was a combination of his lizard lips and a Parduba mouthpiece. You won't touch either of those horns for $250, not since you called people's attention to it. Well, you might, but $400ish would be closer to the truth. See, the thing is, any Buescher horn is a good horn. I have a Model 220 I could sell you tomorrow that would play phenominally well... once you got used to it. Would take a week. The point is that YOU can play any horn well as long as you practice it and put your heart and soul into it. I play my 400 because that's my grandfather's horn they gave me when I was a kid, and I've only played Bueschers after that. Some people have Conn in their heart and soul. Mendez up there knows and breathes Olds (though the poor sap got distracted by the Committee). If you like how the Buescher 400 looks (pick the later one, better valves), then play it. It'll take you a while to adjust to where it wants you to center each note, but you can do it. Like I said before, it's a good middle-of-the-road horn that will do just about anything you ask of it and you really can't overblow it... it will take all you can put in, and then some... as long as you're as good as you think. These guys building the heavyweight horns today, Monette and Harrelson, they use some of the same principles used to build this horn. If that's what you're looking for, go for it. Tom

06-22-2009, 12:14 AM	#8
VetPsychWars Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Greenfield WI Posts: 248	Re: Old Buescher 400's--Firsthand Accounts? Given all that, a Buescher 400 would be fine for you, though others have said that the Ambassador is underrated (never played one). You can't go wrong with a horn that makes you use air support. To this day, I can push all sorts of air just because I learned to play on this 400 I have. What you consider to be "difficult" (mine is too) I consider a "challenge". If nothing else, you'll learn something. Note well: there are two sizes of Buescher 400. The Model 225 has the "medium large" bore and the Model 224 has the "medium" bore. This pretty much applies to prewar horns; I do not have any knowledge of Model 224 horns being made after WWII. Casual observers: In the late 50s and 60s, the 400 was redesigned to match the rest of the line. Fine horns, I'm sure (never played one, see other raves on this forum) but not what's pictured above. Tom

06-21-2009, 09:48 PM	#3
VetPsychWars Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Greenfield WI Posts: 248	Re: Old Buescher 400's--Firsthand Accounts? Hrm. Did I say dead nuts accurate and you can clear a room without trying hard? I didn't mean to scare you away, just wanted to let you know that this horn doesn't play like you might be used to. Tom

06-23-2009, 01:11 AM	#9
mimic Pianissimo User Join Date: May 2009 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 119	Re: Old Buescher 400's--Firsthand Accounts? I purchased a Buescher 400 on ebay about 2 months ago. Serial #359xxx. Dates it to the late 50's or early 60's. I paid 395 for it and am very satisfied with it. I was playing an Olds Super Recording but decided to retire it, didn't want to put wear and tear on it after getting it redone. The Olds is an unbelievable player so I had some misgivings about the Buescher. Best advice I see on this topic is to give yourself time to get used to it. The Olds was a very free blow and I wasn't ready for the resistance from the 400. I stuck with it and now appreceiate it very much. I don't know what price you'll get one for but let this be a guide for you, Bueschers are (maybe now were) some of the lower priced horns out there. Mine is literally like new, no dings or dents, perfect laquer, and Anderson Plating redone valves. It looks like it was just purchased from a music store in 1960. It's not my perfect fit but it certainly is a good horn.

06-27-2009, 01:49 PM	#10
Brian_88 New Friend Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 17	Re: Old Buescher 400's--Firsthand Accounts? VetPsychWars... Which of these options would you suggest, knowing as much as you do about these horns: 1) Buescher 400 for $165, needs 2nd valve bottom cap, 2nd valve sticks, SN 370xxx 2) Buescher Super 400 in Very Good condition with case for $625, SN 360xxx 3) Keep watching and waiting for a 40s-50s horn (I like the art-deco engraving on the bell) __________________ -Chris-Kratt Super Deluxe, Mid-60s -Olds Ambassador, Late 60s -Buescher Epoch No. 2 Cornet, 1907 -Buescher Tru-Tone Model 9, 1926 -Buescher Model 400, 1961-62 ------------------------------------ All on a Schilke 13a4a heavyweight

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