smiller

Please, your thoughts comparing two Olds Ambassador cornets: 1949 and 60's, both is good condition.
I am a tenor sax player. The instrument I play is a '40s 'The Martin' that has a wonderful alive and resonant sound. Would the '40s cornet be more likely to have that quality or were improvement made after Olds moved to Fullerton . I understand that the individual instrument will vary but am asking in general about the quality of these cornets between the '40s and '60s decade. I will go play them soon but am very much beginner on cornet, so will probably need to rely on listening to someone else demonstrate these two horns.
Your thoughts? Any comments appreciated...

smiller

Well, after posting this I see all the related links. So, I already most of my answer. What a great resource this site is! Seems like the comparison should be mostly in the condition of the horn, as '60s were quality years for the Ambassador. Seems like the collector value would be more for the late '40s horn but the playing value higher for the '60s. In fact the price asked is the same for both ($150), so I'll probably be choosing the one in better condition.
Still eager to hear any comments from the vast storehouse of knowledge here...

MFfan

Sounds like you are heading in the right direction with your selection. Some say the LA ones were better quality than the Fullerton. I used to have a 73 Fullerton cornet and 76 Ambassador,Fullerton, which were good quality instruments. Have fun with your choice.

__________________
Dave Rafferty
Lemar Trumpet (peashooter-Conn?)
Lyrical Trumpet (Tokan)

Besson 609 Trumpet
1955-60 Besson 8-10 Trumpet
1948 Besson cornet
1946 King Master Cornet
www.kalamazooconcertband.org

study888

Hello Smiller,there are many on the T.M. that are much more qualified to answer your question. There is a Olds site called Olds Central that covers all Olds Cornet models. If your Cornet has a single slotted brass valve guide system. The quality of these Cornets was good through the 60's. A good one could still be made in the 70's,but unheard of valve problems started showing up in that era etc. The Olds Ambasador Cornet most would want,would be the first L.A. version model. They had the longer valve casing and valves and had two slotted valve guides etc. Had much more personel hands on attention,and am sure the Brass quality was the very best. All of these older L.A. Olds models are the prefered ones if still in very good playing condition. The later brands through the 60's and some 70's play very well if they were taken care of. Since you are just starting to learn the Cornet. Have a friend trumpet/cornet player play these Olds Cornets for you. I would buy the one that is in the best condition,even if it was the 70's made one. They are great student/intermediate cornets,but will not outplay a Bach, Yamaha, or my old 1948 KingMaster, Argenta cornet,Conn 36A Concert Grand in over all sound quality. Which does not mean they play bad,they are more brassy sounding,do well in a marching band etc. Some players use them for Dixie Land playing. One other thing,some of the older L.A. model Cornets had a differant size mouthpiece reciever,that will not accept the newer Cornet mouthpieces today. Just my opinion,hope this helps.

RSB7B

Beware of the non-standard mouthpiece shank on Olds cornets of Serial Number less than 189611 (as per Alan Rouses excellent Olds Central website).

If your brass technician can get you a more recent Olds mouthpiece receiver, it's an easy job to replace the non-standard one. BTW, the non-standard mouthpiece receiver will accept a Bach flugelhorn mouthpiece; but a cornet mouthpiece will simply fall out!

Good luck!

Doug

Darthsunshine

I have had several Ambassador cornets of LA and Fullerton vintage. I generally like the build quality of the LA horns better, but I've also had a couple of very nice Fullerton horns. As for which you should get? It depends what you're going to use it for. The problem with the LA horns is the large shank mp (as has been mentioned), and they do not have 3rd valve slide throws (nor can one be easily mounted). So, my conclusion is that if you are going to be playing in a group where intonation is going to be an issue you should get a Fullerton horn. However, if that is not such an issue, an LA horn is very nice and easier to adjust the tone to match others (I've had a thumb saddle added to my Shepherd's crook Ambassador, listed below). Hope this helps some

__________________
Glen Ferguson

1977 LA Benge 3C
1976 LA Benge 3X+
1972 LA Benge 5x
1963 Burbank Benge Eb/D
1959 Olds Amb. cornet w/ Getzen shep crook bell

Darthsunshine

I should clarify that the Fullerton Ambassador cornet I'm talking about has the pinky hook, rather than the pinky ring. Those are the ones with the adjustable third valve slide throw. The first couple years of Fullerton production was exactly the same design as the LA horns, which lack the third valve slide throw. Any Fullerton horn from the 1960s will have the third valve slide throw. Whew!

__________________
Glen Ferguson

1977 LA Benge 3C
1976 LA Benge 3X+
1972 LA Benge 5x
1963 Burbank Benge Eb/D
1959 Olds Amb. cornet w/ Getzen shep crook bell

smiller

Here is how this story ends:
The seller demonstrated both horns. They both sounded great. I had a slight preference for the sound of the Fullerton, probably due to some custom modifications and it was in slightly better condition. Generally, I found it easier to play. The valves had a better feel as well, so that clinched it. The receiver on the LA one (1949) had already been changed over to accept regular mouthpieces, so that wasn't a problem and we compared both instruments with a series of mouthpieces one after the other. The 1949 one was better looking in the way that older instruments in good shape always are and it had the original case as well. But I wanted the most advantage possible in learning to play and I'm really, really liking playing this instrument. It's inspirational.
So the 1949 Ambassador is still available, if anyone is interested email me and I can forward your contact information to the seller, who was a pleasure to deal with. I bid on a couple of similar instruments on E-bay earlier, but this was a much more satisfying way to purchase a new (old) horn. Now I'm glad I got outbid on both of them in the last few seconds. It seems far, far better to have a chance to get to know the person you are buying from and to play the instrument yourself before purchasing.

Darthsunshine

Smiller:

Sounds like you did it exactly the right way; picking the horn that played and felt best to you. I hope you enjoy your Ambassador as much as I've enjoyed the ones I've had. They're a lot of fun. Glad you found a good person to deal with too!

__________________
Glen Ferguson

1977 LA Benge 3C
1976 LA Benge 3X+
1972 LA Benge 5x
1963 Burbank Benge Eb/D
1959 Olds Amb. cornet w/ Getzen shep crook bell

ChopsGone

I have several vintage Olds horns, both L.A. and Fullerton, and fortunately have never run into any of the quality problems which appeared later. Supposedly, the L.A. horns had a bit darker sound; I'm not completely convinced because my Fullerton horns are pretty dark-sounding, too.

But a comment earlier in this thread about better brass quality set me to wondering. When Ambassadors were introduced in 1949, we were just a few years past WWII, and even automobile production hadn't fully recovered from materiel shortages and restrictions. Look forward a year or so, and here go tons of brass to Korea.

I've seen speculation that some Bessons were so good in part because of the use of old shell casings.

OK, does anyone know just what quality of brass was available to instrument makers during the late 1940's to late 1950's? I'm an old coot who can remember saving foil wrappers from chewing gum, and turning them in at school for the war effort. OK, I can remember cardboard pennies, too, but that's another story. It's a serious question.

__________________
Vintage Olds and Reynolds, yes sir, yes sir, one gazoo full.

Calicchios, Besson, Kanstul Bessons, Selmers, etc.

F.E. forgive me, even a Bach Strad (but I like the others much better)