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Vintage Trumpets / Cornets Discuss Question about Cornets with trumpet leadpipes in the Equipment forums; Ok I have seen people convert Cornets into trumpet before. I am also aware that Conn had some models a ...
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    Question about Cornets with trumpet leadpipes

    Ok I have seen people convert Cornets into trumpet before. I am also aware that Conn had some models a long time ago that where cornet's that had trumpet leadpipes and main tuneing slide. So I have a few questions???? First if you take a cornet and convert it to a trumpet leadpipe and tuneing slide is it still a Cornet or has it become a trumpet by default? Second if you convert one to a trumpet do you have to change the bell as well to make it technicaly a trumpet? third what is the length difference between a cornet's leadpipe and a trumpets leadpipe and how much of the 2/3 conical tubeing does the leadpipe make up?

    I know that was a bunch of questions??? that did not even touch though on the shorter shank length of the cornet mouthpiece or the if the tuning slides are useing conical or not etc.... I am guessing ht eslides are not because when I have seen them turned into trumpets the slides for the valves where never changed and only about 1/2 the time was the bell changed. It was almost always just about the trumpet leadpipe and makeing or finding a tuneing slide that allowed everything to line up properly and adding on some length tot he knuckle comeing out of the third valve to mate up with the now trumpet leadpipe and tuneing slide combo.

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    Re: Question about Cornets with trumpet leadpipes

    When I was analysing and measuring various cornet and trumpet models I discovered that some manufacturers use what are obviously th esame components for both their cornet and trumpet models. However, one of the least mentioned benefits to buying the better and more expensive instruments is that one gets more purpose designed and made parts.

    Of the trumpets that I measured. the longest leadpipe taper was about 8 inches, and the shortes as I remember was a little over 5 1/2. Compare this with the leadpipe of my Sovereign cornet which is 14 inches long and as far as I can tell (measure) is tapered for the whole section. In addition, the bell section of the Sovereign is obviously purpose designed and has different flare rate to any trumpet that I have been able to compare it with.

    In cheaper cornet models, and particularly those made in 'non cornet understanding' countries, it is easy to see that the bell sections of cornets often, indeed usually, made from the same component as used in that makers trumpets.

    To answer you main question somewhat basically, the replacement of leadpipe by that from theother instrument essentially makes that instrument type,...short open taper,..trumpet. Long gradual taper,..cornet. Of course, this GREATLY simplifies the business of cornet/trumpet design which is often found to have considerable sublties commonly overlooked by laypeople who have not made instruments.

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    Utimate User Dale Proctor's Avatar
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    Re: Question about Cornets with trumpet leadpipes

    I have a Bach Strad 43 trumpet and a Bach Strad 184G shepherd's crook cornet. I measured them a couple of years ago and here are the results:

    Tapered section of leadpipe: Trumpet =9.5" Cornet=14.5"
    Total leadpipe length (to the 3rd valve): Trumpet=25.5" Cornet=30.5"
    Bell length: Trumpet=25.5" Cornet=20.5"

    So, the shepherds' crook cornet IS a more conical instrument than the trumpet, as the cornet begins with a smaller receiver and has a more severe bell taper (and much more of the trumpet bell is cylindrical before the bell taper begins). Even the tuning slide on the Bach cornet tapers in size - it's smaller diameter tubing on the leadpipe side. Interestingly, the trumpet ratio of leadpipe to bell lengths is 1:1, and the SC cornet ratio is 3:2. Again, this is a generalization based on Bach horns, but the numbers will be similar with most comparisons between true trumpets and short cornets. Long cornets and many cheaper shepherds' crook cornets fall somewhere betwen these sets of measurements.
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    Re: Question about Cornets with trumpet leadpipes

    That is what I sumized from what I have read. I have never owned a cornet before and my much debated Buescher Aristocrat/Elkhart 57C/Maybe Franken Horn will be my first cornet. So I am very interested now in gaining a better understanding of them and how theya re designed as compared to a trumpet. Since their seem to be so many variations especialy the further one goes back in history with the cornet with reguards to their design. Today most of them follow a common design that is rather simple and straight forward. In years past I have seen some preety wild and crazy designs for the cornet. I think the most obvious things that stands out is how long many of the older cornet's Perinet valves where and how radicly different some of the valve engines where in how the routed the air around and how many seperate slides and bends some of them had.

    If one loks at most modern designs they all look about the same as the wrap styrl that Yamaha and Getzen both use. I really wanted an older Besson or Holton Clake and was watching examples of both. I only wen twitht he one i went with due to the Aristocrat label ont he bell and the beautiful finish. I am hopeing that when I get it out of the case it will need absolutely nothing to be put into service ie no patching, no valve work etc.....I have plenty of great project horns right now and wanted another player. I am still interested though in haveing a Besson and a Holton Clarke model in the future.

    I recently say an awsome example of the old echo adapatation and would love to find a cornet with that adaptation already made to it.

    I normaly like to use V cup's and double cup mouthpieces with my trumpets and I like a rather flat rim profile. When I use a c cup I usualy go for a very deep c cup.Given my likes do either of youhave any mouthpiece idea's that have proven themself's to be consistent performers on cornet's. Bear in mind I am not a fan of bach's rim profile.

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    Utimate User Dale Proctor's Avatar
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    Re: Question about Cornets with trumpet leadpipes

    Speaking of strange cornet designs, my last cornet buy was this '69 Conn Connquest. It has a strange wrap, with the leadpipe going into the 1st valve and the bell coming out of the 3rd, and the tuning slide is in the bell tubing. The Olds Recording cornet has this same design.





    As for mouthpieces, for brass band use, many of us use Dennis Wick mouthpieces. They will really give you a rich sound, and have very deep cups and large throats. For other modern cornet playing, I use a Bach mouthpiece of one size or another. For my 19th century cornet, a period "cookie cutter" mouthpiece - flat sharp rim, deep funnel cup, big throat.
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    When everyone else has finished playing a piece, you should not play any notes you have left...

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    Re: Question about Cornets with trumpet leadpipes

    I saw a COnn just like that on Ebay and I stared at it for a full 3-4 minute before moveing on. It was not in the beautiful shape yours is in though. It had sings of water damage and was comeing out of Florida. It looked like it spent a long time in salt water. It had that same strange wrap. I had never seen that before so I stared at it. I have seen some really odd things on the left side of some cornet valve engines in terms of routeing the air around and through the vbarious ports. While I am all for standardized valve engines and such I like to see some variety in things and get tired of seeing companies chose themost basic and mundane design. I am sure they are chooseing their designs based solely on production cost which leaves a sour taste in my mouth when you think of how much they charge for an instrument when new. You would think they could wade a little further into the water in terms of design and come up with something one does not see everyone else do.

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