screamingmorris

Earlier this year I had a cornet re-lacquered, the first time I have ever had anything re-lacquered.
Please tell me if any of you have ever had the same experience I am having with that re-lacquer job so I will know if the problem really is common.

Because I expressed concerns that an epoxy re-lacquer might be irreversible in the future, the local re-lacquer guy in Louisville used cellulose lacquer.
When he delivered the re-lacquered cornet to me I immediately noticed that the re-lacquered brass looked uniformly light green all over the cornet (my wife even commented on the greenish tint).
I assumed that it must be just some optical property of that particular brand of lacquer that he used.
I also noticed that the finish was satin rather than glossy.

The cornet was then put away for a couple of months so that the lacquer had plenty of time to cure before the cornet was used.

Now that the cornet has been used on an almost daily basis for 2 weeks, the areas where the left hand touches the cornet have started to become much *more* green, even greener than the day it was delivered it me, and the lacquer is even starting to peel off where the left hand touches it.

I sent an email to the re-lacquer guy, and this was his response:

"Lacquer is a temporary finish at best. The horn does sound better raw, as do almost all horns. Lacquer was designed by Conn in the early 1900's to keep the horn shiny and make it easier to polish. Most people have acid in their sweat that cause brass to turn green. Lacquer will help that from happening but is not a solution to the problem. Some people can wear off lacquer very quickly. I do not believe that the horn was green to start with since I do about 5 a week and have only seen one turn green before. One of my good friends (a teacher and pro player) has had to put guards on his horns since the 1950's because his sweat eats through lacquer in a week and silver plating in 4-6 months. I did one in cellulose for him and it turned green in about a month. But he is really the exception and not the rule. Some people just wear it off faster than others.There is nothing wrong with it that some polish and a guard will not solve. If you want the horn stripped back raw just contact me and I will do it for free."

I sent back an email telling him that the bare brass cornet had been yellow before the re-lacquer, and that it only looked uniformly greenish after the re-lacquer, was already uniformly greenish the day he delivered it to me, and was becoming more green since.

So, does a re-lacquer job really look light green right away?
Does a re-lacquer job turn more green and peel after just 2 weeks of casual use?

Since I have never had a re-lacquer job done before, I would appreciate your letting me know how common my problem is.

- Morris

bagmangood

I haven't ever had a horn re-lacquered, but I do know that it shouldn't be just a "temporary" solution. With horns from the 20s and 30s still with most of their lacquer on, describing it that way doesn't make sense. When I hear about a horn turning green or someone's hands green, it usually is about a horn that is raw brass so I'm not really sure what's going on here...

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Dale Proctor

I've had a few brass horns relacquered over the years (by the same shop) and I've never had one come back green. The one I owned the longest after the relaquer, around 20 years, did begin to darken and turn a slightly greenish-honey gold color, but not for many years, and even then, not noticably green. Of course, the acidity of one's skin will have an effect on the life of lacquer, but I'd think new lacquer would last at least a few years if taken care of, no matter what. I have a 48 year old Conn trumpet with the original lacquer, and other than it turning a little darker over the years for whatever reason, it still looks great. And it's not green....

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oldlou

In my 'accumilation' I have a couple of old brass cornets that i stripped and relacquered with Deft, a nitro cellulose lacquer. I can not say that the finish is perfect, coming from a spray can out of doors, but, it is certainly not green. Unless one looks VERY carefully they would pronounce the finish to be the original from the factory job. I am happy with the finish and it has yet to peel after three years on each old horn.


I would take the technician up on his offer to restrip your horn and then, use a silicone rag after each use to slow down the corrosion, or, apply a good silicone auto wax, which is dead simple to do and takes but a few minutes to apply and rub back down. I have done this with several of my horns and am most pleased with the result. I use Turtle Wax Super Hard Shell from the local auto supply store. It seems to last about a year before needing re application.


OLDLOU>>

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Couturier trumpet
York Master Model trumpet
York Elite trumpet
York Airflow cornet
King super 20 Master Model cornet
King Liberty trumpet
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Olds Special cornet Los Angeles
B&H Sovereign cornet
G.R.Band Instr. cornet
Getzen Super Deluxe trumpet and cornet
Getzen Deluxe trumpet and cornet
Many others no room to list

Scooter01

I had a horn re-lacquered 1 year ago and it is every bit as good looking now as it was back then. I would presume that the guy who did yours did not properly prepare the surface and possibly used the wrong product. I would send it to Charlie Melk to be redone and ask the first guy for a complete refund.

Vulgano Brother

It seems to me that the acid was on the horn before the lacquer job, the result of not killing the acid after a dip. Even cornets deserve better care than that! Complain.

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screamingmorris

That is *exactly* what I started to suspect while pondering the matter earlier today, because I remember a year or so ago he said something about chemically cleaning instruments.

The re-lacquer guy did not respond to my last email.

Lesson: If you live in Louisville, do not have a local person re-lacquer your instrument, no matter how attractive the price might seem.
Ship your instrument out of state to have a real pro re-lacquer your instrument.
It costs more, but at least you won't end up with a ruined instrument.

In its present condition, my instrument is actually worth *less* than when it was bare metal.

- Morris

Indian

I think OldLou has the best answer. I have stripped many of my horns and like the raw brass fine. I have relacquered a few using Lou's methods and have had great results. One horn I relacquered over five years ago and it is still fine. I did one horn on a slightly windy day and it did turn out to be more of a satin finish, I actually kind of liked it and it is still that way. None turned green and none are peeling of. If the guy is local I would take in to show him if not I would consider stripping it myself. I would only use a chemical non-acid and non-caustic stripper. The silicone impregnated gun cloth rag Lou mentioned also works well for raw brass. When my horns are chemically cleaned I do not use acid since the inside of the horn is raw brass and acid pits brass. I use surfactans only and they do a great job of getting the gunk out without hurting the horn at all.

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Rob,
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lmf

Hi,

If the job wasn't done right, it needs to be redone by the firm or the price refunded. I would seriously begin writing "certified" letters indicating displeasure with the work and request something be done.

If that fails to bring the matter to its rightful conclusion, it is time to contact the "Better Business Bureau" to intercede.

You can always have the horn redone by another firm, but better to get your refund up front. Without setting up the process for involving the BBB, the dealer can always say that you didn't work with him in resolving the issue.

It appears the dealer didn't clean the acid from the instrument properly before relaquering and that appears to be the problem.

Best wishes,

Lloyd

brass1mike

First, I am surprised that there are so many expert opinions being made without anyone knowing anything about the situation.

I am the one who did the job and stand by the technical aspect of the new lacquer application. The horn wasn't acid etched and was just cleaned and polished. The prep work is the same as in the past several hundred horns I have coated. The new lacquer is the same one that has been used in over 200 jobs in the past five years. The offer I made Morris was a deeply discounted job plus I picked up the horn and delived it back to him. No mention of the supposed "green" lacquer was made when he saw it or afterwards until he sold the horn. Then "all of a sudden" there were problems two months later. I have bailed Morris out of horns before and would have done so again had he called me to offer the horn to me. I offered to strip the lacquer for free but the new buyer and Morris didn't want that done. Based on the past history with Morris and his airing of a problem here without my consultation I will not offer any refund. I still stand by my offer to strip it for free and will do so if the horn is sent to me. I will not make any more special trips to pick up or deliver it back to him.

Beside that I played the horn in a big band practice on one number to test it and the comments from all 18 people there was that the horn was beautiful. After Morris contacted me the first time I asked the players if I had ever bought in a horn that looked green before. The answer was that they had never seen a horn that I had done that looked green. Of course they had not seen the Emerald green horn I did for a student on St Patricks day.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant here but I am upset that some people show such a lack of consideration toward others. I was bound to have one complaint after working on over 500 horns!