To Turn or not to Turn.

Jazzcmor · 09-28-2009, 12:51 AM

When it comes to valving do rotary valves have any advantage over pistons? All I can remember was the difficulty I had working with them when I played the french horn in high school.

marsuleu · 09-29-2009, 12:22 PM

rotary valves are not that fast as pistons ... and needs more attention and care ... I tried only one trumpet with rotary valves and didn't like it .

trumpetnick · 09-29-2009, 01:02 PM

Though I do not claim to be an expert in rotaries, I strongly disagree with the above statement. If one particular trumpet had slow or sluggish valves, that doesn't necessarily mean that all rotaries have such valves. The reasons why JM had with the french horn may be different: operating valves with left hand as opposite to right for trumpet, lousy valves, body tension...

It is normal to have some issues at the beginning, whether it would be operating valves or tone production/blowing. Rotaries are not slower or faster, they are just different

Quote:

One of the most helpful pieces of information he has given me is the fact that Bud spent so much time playing the rotary valve trumpet. I have taken his advice: adding regular, daily sessions on both Bb and C rotaries to my warmup and practice sessions. I have seen big gains in accuracy as well as noticeable improvements in the clarity and presence of my sound on piston trumpet. My legato, specifically the “pervasiveness” of my air to use Jay’s term, has improved greatly thanks to my increased practice on rotary valves as well. Jay’s assertion that piston valves allow trumpet players to relax the airstream during valve changes is absolutely accurate, and if you don’t own a rotary valve trumpet, Jay’s spare trumpet/trombone slide cream idea from his “Trompete!” article is an excellent substitute for this legato practice.

Chris Martin, Principal Trumpet, CSO

Quote:

--Adolph Herseth (who is a very positive example of seamless musical connection) has always encouraged players to practice an equal proportion of time on both the piston and rotary valved trumpets. There are several very beneficial reasons for this, but chief among them is that the rotary valve change does not introduce any resistance to the instrument, especially as compared to the piston valve change. He has often told me that playing successfully on the rotary valved trumpet makes the piston trumpet feel that much more comfortable. This is because the rotary valved instrument offers one the opportunity and/or challenge to produce musical phrases without the interruptions of the piston style valve changes. Since they are not an option, the player must make musical statements without using them as a potential crutch for continued response or having them as a potential obstacle to linear continuity.

--Even on the rotary trumpet, however, one still needs the intensity of mental preconception that demands seamless connection between notes. Once again, targeted listening to other instruments for this nuance is key along with very slow and detailed practice.

John Hagstrom, Principal Trumpet, CSO

I've played quite a few high end both rotary and piston trumpets and wouldn't say that any of the 2 valves system is faster, but everyone has its advantages. Rotaries are fast enough - look at that:

YouTube - MNOZIL BRASS Kill Bill-Green Hornet

Roman Rindenberger plays on rotary valve ganchhorn trumpet (not sure which model exactly, I believe that it is vienna, but may be very well wrong. It looks a bit like a piston (upright valves) but it is rotary:

It all comes down to what you wanna do. Pistons are handier than "normal" or if you wish standard rotaries for fast mute changes (big band).

marsuleu · 09-29-2009, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trumpetnick

Though I do not claim to be an expert in rotaries, I strongly disagree with the above statement. If one particular trumpet had slow or sluggish valves, that doesn't necessarily mean that all rotaries have such valves. The reasons why JM had with the french horn may be different: operating valves with left hand as opposite to right for trumpet, lousy valves, body tension...

what I mean is that this type of rotary valves does not help you to play very fast (high bpm) songs. as you can see in this demo , the first trumpet has pistons, not rotary. the others two have rotary and they play the backing . IMO they are not for virtuosity ... piston feels better and you have more control when playing fast ...

trumpetnick · 09-29-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marsuleu

the first trumpet has pistons, not rotary.

Please read carefully before posting. Roman Rindenberger (who I met in person and had a lesson with 1 year ago), who's playing the solo is using an upright valved ROTARY trumpet called GANCHHORN, made by Schagerl-Austria, which you can see on the above picture. If valves are good (zirnbauer for schagerl) which are probably the best rotary valves in the world, there is no limitations. The only limitations can be YOUR brain and YOUR fingers.

marsuleu · 09-29-2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trumpetnick

Please read carefully before posting. Roman Rindenberger (who I met in person and had a lesson with 1 year ago), who's playing the solo is using an upright valved ROTARY trumpet called GANCHHORN, made by Schagerl-Austria, which you can see on the above picture. If valves are good (zirnbauer for schagerl) which are probably the best rotary valves in the world, there is no limitations. The only limitations can be YOUR brain and YOUR fingers.

OK , my bad ! I didn't observe that he plays the trumpet from that picture, but I saw the left guy who plays backing he is using that "ganchhorn" .
I don't know who is Roman Rindenberger , so I thougt is the guy from left side.
above all these , I still belive that ordinary rotary valves horns are not that "fast" as pistons... ( this ganchhorn is not in discussion, because it is an exception and it is not so popular ... )

trumpetnick · 09-29-2009, 02:30 PM

OK. Another example:
Again Mnozil, but this time with Robert Rotter soloing on a standard rotary trumpet:

YouTube - mnozil Brass

It is parody, but it is quite fast, so I hope that is good to demonstrate my point. The point is, rotary or piston, if it works properly and well cared it can play fast than most human beings can...

s.coomer · 09-29-2009, 02:49 PM

This seems like a debate that can go on forever. However, those of us who play symphony have learned that we use the trumpet and the sound from the trumpet that fits the music. Therefore, we use both types. I find no real obstacles with using either one once you get used to them.

trumpetnick · 09-29-2009, 03:34 PM

S,

That's exactly the point I was trying to make/demonstrate. I get a bit irritated when I see uninformed people to make claims and generalizations containing very little truth or not at all. Sorry for the heat

09-28-2009, 12:51 AM	#1
Jazzcmor New Friend Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Blue Ridge Parkway, VA. Posts: 9	To Turn or not to Turn. When it comes to valving do rotary valves have any advantage over pistons? All I can remember was the difficulty I had working with them when I played the french horn in high school.

09-29-2009, 12:22 PM	#2
marsuleu Pianissimo User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bucharest , Romania Posts: 144	Re: To Turn or not to Turn. rotary valves are not that fast as pistons ... and needs more attention and care ... I tried only one trumpet with rotary valves and didn't like it . __________________ Yamaha 4335GS trumpet Vincent Bach 1-1/2C mouthpiece

09-29-2009, 02:49 PM	#8
s.coomer Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Indianapolis, In Posts: 919	Re: To Turn or not to Turn. This seems like a debate that can go on forever. However, those of us who play symphony have learned that we use the trumpet and the sound from the trumpet that fits the music. Therefore, we use both types. I find no real obstacles with using either one once you get used to them.

09-29-2009, 03:34 PM	#9
trumpetnick Forte User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vidin, Bulgaria Posts: 1,890	Re: To Turn or not to Turn. S, That's exactly the point I was trying to make/demonstrate. I get a bit irritated when I see uninformed people to make claims and generalizations containing very little truth or not at all. Sorry for the heat __________________ Spada Bach B flat 72, leadpipe 2L/DWMM1.5C Spada Bach C 256, leadpipe 2LQ/DWMM1.5C 1956 Olds Ambassador Cornet Spada Custom Piccolo If you don't know where you are going, you 'll end up someplace else

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