Unbearable Olds valve springs noise

stephan · 11-24-2008, 04:07 PM

Hello all,
I 'm new on this forum.
I have a L.A. Ambassador cornet which plays great but the the noise due to the vibration of the springs is unbearable.
I bought a set or repair parts ( corks, felts, springs and valve guides) at Bandroom.
I thought that the nylon guides could be the solution. Unfortunately, they don't fit with my L.A. Amb. The external diameter of the Bandroom guide measures 19 mm. The inner diameter of the valve casing of a L.A. Amb. measures 18.5 mm.
I tried them on a 1957 Fullerton Amb. and they fit because the inner diameter of the valve casing measures 19.3 mm.
The system of the metal valve guide and spring seems to be the same on all Olds trumpets and cornets.
Have you the same problem?
Is there a soltution?
Thanks

edcon1981 · 11-24-2008, 04:46 PM

welcome to tm, i hope someone can solve ur problem. i had that problem wtih my early fullerton trumpet, but i replaced the springs and solved it... dunno what to tell you.

study888 · 11-24-2008, 08:48 PM

Hello Stephan, Try removing finger button,remove top valve cap of one of valves, are all. Send us some good pics of your cork and felt and spring set up. I assume your Horn has the single brass valve guide with single valve guide slot groove in casing. This change must have started with the late 6 or 7 serial # L.A. Horns through to the Fullerton models etc. All of the Olds L.A. 5 serial # Horns had the best valve set up with a Heavy made Square type Brass double slotted valve guide and double slotted grooves in casing. If your valve action feels real stiff,on up and down action,the springs may be to stong for this Horn. I have run into same problem with my King Liberty #2 Trumpets. I bought two differant sets of springs from Bandroom1,great springs,great price,fast service,but the best of two was the universal vintage spring. The old Pryamid Conical 22B springs are to strong on a King Liberty#2. The universal ones were better but still not like the original soft ones. I figure your springs tension are to strong,my L.A. Olds Ambassador is real smooth and fast,not stiff feeling. One of the T.H. members e-mailed me about a Music Tech. and Music Store who may have the Liberty Springs I am looking for.They may have what you are looking for, name of Store is( Quality Brass) in Ames Iowa,Quality Brass website or try Harry Carter at Pettifor's restorations. This info was given to me by T.H. member Donald Galyean. Thanks again Donald.

stephan · 11-25-2008, 04:22 PM

Thanks for your reply Edcon and Study.
I don't have pics yet, I will post them later.
My cornet has the best valve set up with a Heavy made Square type Brass double slotted valve guide and double slotted grooves in casing.
The springs are new but don't work better than the old ones.
The valve action seems to be good, not too stiff.
Maybe the valve corks and felts are slighty hard and they generate the vibration of the spring.

edcon1981 · 11-25-2008, 04:26 PM

HOW DO THe valves themselves look? i had to have the first valve on my amb lapped cause it looked like someone took coarse sandpaper to them before i bought the horn. while having a valve lapped is generally a second to last resort, it did quiet the valve.

stephan · 11-25-2008, 04:58 PM

The valves are in very good condition for their age.
They work well and the compression is good.

lovevixen555 · 11-27-2008, 03:44 PM

.5mm is not that much. COuld you simply use an ignition file set and carefuly file them to fit? I know with old firearms you often have to hand fit factory part's when you can find old factory parts to fit. Even though they where massed produced the machines back then had a lot of tolerance stacking issues which meant they where intergable in terms of part's in theory only.Have you tried contacting the place you bought them from to see if their another kit??? With vechiles sometimes their is a VIN number break or a month day year break where they have 1st design and 2nd design parts that will not interchange etc........

stephan · 11-30-2008, 09:29 AM

Some pics

11-24-2008, 04:07 PM	#1
stephan New Friend Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: France Posts: 27	Unbearable Olds valve springs noise Hello all, I 'm new on this forum. I have a L.A. Ambassador cornet which plays great but the the noise due to the vibration of the springs is unbearable. I bought a set or repair parts ( corks, felts, springs and valve guides) at Bandroom. I thought that the nylon guides could be the solution. Unfortunately, they don't fit with my L.A. Amb. The external diameter of the Bandroom guide measures 19 mm. The inner diameter of the valve casing of a L.A. Amb. measures 18.5 mm. I tried them on a 1957 Fullerton Amb. and they fit because the inner diameter of the valve casing measures 19.3 mm. The system of the metal valve guide and spring seems to be the same on all Olds trumpets and cornets. Have you the same problem? Is there a soltution? Thanks __________________ Bach stradivarius 25LR 72 trumpet (Bach 1 1/2 C mpc) 1957 Olds Ambassador trumpet Couesnon 142 Monopole flugelhorn (Schilke 13F4 mpc) 1951 Olds Ambassador Cornet (Denis wick 3B and 4W mpc) Last edited by stephan; 11-24-2008 at 04:26 PM.

11-24-2008, 08:48 PM	#3
study888 Pianissimo User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Darlington S.C. Posts: 150	Re: Unbearable Olds valve springs noise Hello Stephan, Try removing finger button,remove top valve cap of one of valves, are all. Send us some good pics of your cork and felt and spring set up. I assume your Horn has the single brass valve guide with single valve guide slot groove in casing. This change must have started with the late 6 or 7 serial # L.A. Horns through to the Fullerton models etc. All of the Olds L.A. 5 serial # Horns had the best valve set up with a Heavy made Square type Brass double slotted valve guide and double slotted grooves in casing. If your valve action feels real stiff,on up and down action,the springs may be to stong for this Horn. I have run into same problem with my King Liberty #2 Trumpets. I bought two differant sets of springs from Bandroom1,great springs,great price,fast service,but the best of two was the universal vintage spring. The old Pryamid Conical 22B springs are to strong on a King Liberty#2. The universal ones were better but still not like the original soft ones. I figure your springs tension are to strong,my L.A. Olds Ambassador is real smooth and fast,not stiff feeling. One of the T.H. members e-mailed me about a Music Tech. and Music Store who may have the Liberty Springs I am looking for.They may have what you are looking for, name of Store is( Quality Brass) in Ames Iowa,Quality Brass website or try Harry Carter at Pettifor's restorations. This info was given to me by T.H. member Donald Galyean. Thanks again Donald.

11-25-2008, 04:22 PM	#4
stephan New Friend Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: France Posts: 27	Re: Unbearable Olds valve springs noise Thanks for your reply Edcon and Study. I don't have pics yet, I will post them later. My cornet has the best valve set up with a Heavy made Square type Brass double slotted valve guide and double slotted grooves in casing. The springs are new but don't work better than the old ones. The valve action seems to be good, not too stiff. Maybe the valve corks and felts are slighty hard and they generate the vibration of the spring. __________________ Bach stradivarius 25LR 72 trumpet (Bach 1 1/2 C mpc) 1957 Olds Ambassador trumpet Couesnon 142 Monopole flugelhorn (Schilke 13F4 mpc) 1951 Olds Ambassador Cornet (Denis wick 3B and 4W mpc)

11-25-2008, 04:26 PM	#5
edcon1981 Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Philly Posts: 789	Re: Unbearable Olds valve springs noise HOW DO THe valves themselves look? i had to have the first valve on my amb lapped cause it looked like someone took coarse sandpaper to them before i bought the horn. while having a valve lapped is generally a second to last resort, it did quiet the valve. __________________ Ed Con... 1890's (est) LeFevre 691 Cornet 1890's (est) Harwood "Solo Model" Cornet 1954 Olds (LA) Ambassador Cornet 1956 Olds (EF) Ambassador Trumpet 1989 Selmer Bundy Trumpet 2007 Kanstul KSB100 3-Valve Bugle "An object at rest cannot be stopped!"

11-25-2008, 04:58 PM	#6
stephan New Friend Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: France Posts: 27	Re: Unbearable Olds valve springs noise The valves are in very good condition for their age. They work well and the compression is good. __________________ Bach stradivarius 25LR 72 trumpet (Bach 1 1/2 C mpc) 1957 Olds Ambassador trumpet Couesnon 142 Monopole flugelhorn (Schilke 13F4 mpc) 1951 Olds Ambassador Cornet (Denis wick 3B and 4W mpc)

11-24-2008, 04:46 PM	#2
edcon1981 Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Philly Posts: 789	Re: Unbearable Olds valve springs noise welcome to tm, i hope someone can solve ur problem. i had that problem wtih my early fullerton trumpet, but i replaced the springs and solved it... dunno what to tell you. __________________ Ed Con... 1890's (est) LeFevre 691 Cornet 1890's (est) Harwood "Solo Model" Cornet 1954 Olds (LA) Ambassador Cornet 1956 Olds (EF) Ambassador Trumpet 1989 Selmer Bundy Trumpet 2007 Kanstul KSB100 3-Valve Bugle "An object at rest cannot be stopped!"

11-27-2008, 03:44 PM	#7
lovevixen555 Banned Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 633	Re: Unbearable Olds valve springs noise .5mm is not that much. COuld you simply use an ignition file set and carefuly file them to fit? I know with old firearms you often have to hand fit factory part's when you can find old factory parts to fit. Even though they where massed produced the machines back then had a lot of tolerance stacking issues which meant they where intergable in terms of part's in theory only.Have you tried contacting the place you bought them from to see if their another kit??? With vechiles sometimes their is a VIN number break or a month day year break where they have 1st design and 2nd design parts that will not interchange etc........

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