asd

Using Ben Webster as their guide a subset of tenor players evolved.

Lucky Thompson was more then a tranitional figure between swing and the modern era. He played with a rhythmic freeness that incorporated a very forward thinking approach to the harmonic structure he was conceiving. Gene Ammons, "Lockjaw" Davis, Benny Golsen all kept this tradition alive and added their own sence of modernism (largely harmonic and rhythmic and sound) to the ideas of Lucky Thompson; and again, using the tone of Ben Webster and his often slippery harmonic conception as their guide.

Do we, in the trumpet world have a subset of players such as this. Cull from your examples any period or stylistic linear development.

You will be tempted to say Clarck Terry. Don't. While much venerated, Clark Terry, while coming from a noble tradtion did not permeate the playing of future performers exclusively, although he was a formidable educator and developer and encourager of many talented players.

Remeber--during this period in the tenor sax world--most were involved with the linear progression of Sonny Stitt, Sonny Rollins, Hank Mobely, John Coltrane, and Joe Henderson.

Remeber--your answers must be a subset of the norm, so Clfford, Bill hardman, Blue, Byrd, Hubbard, Morgan, Shaw are NOT a subset, they are the norm. Ok.

How's that, Wilmer? We should have some pretty interesting answers, don'y you think?

And of course, you can count on me to weigh in my ideas after you all finish or get bored.

Thanks!!

PH

..........

asd

Yes, of course, Don Byas, I forgot about him--he belongs in this tenor subset as well. Thanks for reminding me, Pat.

Yes, I think we can delimit the period from swing to bop, and perhaps beyond, such as west coast, "free" and so forth.

PH

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krossum

The curious part of this discussion for me is the phrase "not a direct link in the mainstream evolution of jazz trumpet." I believe mainstream here is in reference to bop/straight-ahead playing? i.e. Wynton, Dave Douglas, et. al. correct?

So by that definition, pop or smooth jazz would be out of the mainstream. Considering this style as a modern day cousin of mainstream jazz - the godfather of this (IMHO) would be Herb Alpert. His subset could include Chuck Mangione, Chris Botti, and many others. This subset of musicians has seemed to gain the financial advantage over the primary jazz figures in the mainstream.

Another possible subset could be that around Lester Bowie; both stylistically and geographically.

Tim Hagans I believe will shake out through history as another one of these stylistically influential players that may escape the "popular" jazz mainstream's adulation. He's infulence can be heard all over the younger generation of players (myself included).

-Kelly

Joe DiMonte

Remeber--your answers must be a subset of the norm, so Clfford, Bill hardman, Blue, Byrd, Hubbard, Morgan, Shaw are NOT a subset, they are the norm. Ok.


As a subset you could add Bill Dixon & Don Cherry.

Joe DiMonte

Using Ben Webster as their guide a subset of tenor players evolved.

I get your point and I happen to think Wardell Gray is a standout !
Go to the Clark Terry & Basie (small combo) post by Jerry and check out
Wardell on tenor.

asd

No doubt, your choices reflect the "quirky" and original voice of Thad Jones. I might add Johnny Coles and Dizzy Reece to that list--always adventerous players harmonically and rhythmically. As "adventerous" as Tom's playing can be--and with him that can be almost on the level of Woody, although as a stylist much was pre 79. To my ears, Tom elved his style, after 1979, and especially starting with the Phil Woods group, to a more spare and "managaeble" way of playing the trumpet as he was not able to sustain the prodigious technique he sported pre-79. And his improv. started to be influenced by the corpus of compostions, and tailerd to the harmonic deamnds/requirements of his original compostions. Further--I hear him as more in the lineage of Fats/Clifford/FreddieWoody. But some of Tom's first work came in the J/L band so he heard Thad constantly, perhaps picking up influence (a tricky, slippery idea!!) Hagans to be sure fits fine. Wendholt and players of note in his generation are such an amalgum that its hard (for me) to pin them down, which, in contrast, the 20 something's I have heard, and who seem to play in a highly technicall but extreemly limited harmonic fashion are always talking about how they have a "fresh" voice, albiet in a very subtle way sometimes. Interestingly, when players like Woody and Freddie and Booker were in their youth, they certianly made arrogent statements (not sure about Booker) but never questioned thieir role as part of a lineage--something that today's under 30 players seem to forget--not only in their words but in their playing.

asd

I responded to PH seperately as he 1) came the closest in what i was asking for by giving a name and then providing a subset of players; 2) backed up his assertions; 3) and reminded ME of a name I had forgotten in my formualtion of tenor players.

Let me respond to the rest of you--and also thank you for responding!!

1) Wardell Grey's life ended much too soon and the time he had was largely spent in the Basie band. His conception, again to my ears, was out of Lester Young/Coleman Hawkins and he was staring to embrace the modernism of bop, largely through Dexter Gorden, before he died. Check out the Grey/Gorden tenor album now probably out of print.

2) The idea of Don Cherry/Bill Dixon, and someone mentioned Lester Bowie, is perhaps a fruitful path. In musing over this idea that I presented, I was tempted to go this route myself: Giving Don Cherry as the standout: then proceeding to list players such as Bill Dixon, Lester Bowie, Hannible marvin Peterson, Paul Smoker, Bakida Carrol, Butch Morris, et al. Then something seemed fishy to me. While I have heard all of these players, waht i seemed to do was righfully pick Don Cherry, then proceed to list all of the outsters who sort of came to my mind. If I were presenting a paper today, I realized that it would be impossible for me to list the actual atributes of the subset in relation to Don Cherry other than that they all played "against the grain." Now that's pretty lame of me. I'm just not that familiar enough with those players to claim lieage although a case, with reserch and dedicated listening and transcribing, might be made.

3) While aborant to many, the smooth jazz contingent of players is an very interesting idea to me. The only problem I find here is that it is motivated by financial renumeration (I don't have a problem with that BTW) and in actuality, the players, in many cases, are "masked"; that is, they are actually part of a "tradition" that they deny in their playing and development a "style" to make money. Chris Botti is surely an excellent example.

4) Another area is the whole "west coast" situation (actually most of the so called west coast scene was as a result of the migration of east coast players to the west, and not an indiginous west coast development, some will argue.)

I'll try to present something:

Originally, I thought of three players: Miles, Cherry and Jones.

With Cherry, I could not find a subset I could intellectually support as I have described above. With Jones, the same thing, and as I deliniated in my note to PH. With Miles, I felt that I had hit on something, but it reached a dead end, making me think that what has happened in the Tenor Sax world has not happened in the trumpet world. But I'll provide my embyonic ideas on the Miles configuration.

Miles, with Birth of the Cool, both socialogically and to some extent musically (and without doubt commercially) suggested a "new" direction (more from the players on the date, the arrangements, but not necessarily his playing but perhaps his inflective approach to that session.) Players like Chet Baker capitalized on this "way of so called playing" and with Chet, a sparse highly emotive style evolved, The Mulligan/Baker sessions concritized this move away from the tradtion of the time (Clifford, Hardman, Sullimam (sp), Byrd, emerging Booker and Freddie) This "spare" style was picked up by Thmas Stanko, Enrico Rava, (and other Europeans but the irony is that I am writing to you from Europe and am away from my materials and am trying to rember things from my head--not smart after 50!! Please forgive.) Then I started to think about KD and his Quiet Kenny album of 1959 and Kenny was always so effective as a "quiet" player--as well as a transitional figure between bop and the modernists of the 60s. And then I had to stop--because rather then subsets, I realized that I was dealing with the multi-faceted nature of these palyers and not an exclusive style of approaching the music--which the tenor sax players I listed had done, and do to this day.

FWIW

Joe DiMonte

Lucky Thompson was more then a tranitional figure between swing and the modern era. He played with a rhythmic freeness that incorporated a very forward thinking approach to the harmonic structure he was conceiving.



Over the weekend,I was having discussion with my elders on some of the issues raised on this board and I was reminded that during his last known interview,Michael "Dodo" Marmarosa who played and recorded with Charlie Parker during the 40s clearly stated that Lucky Thompson was the most amazing tenor player he ever saw or heard play !