Who's in charge?

wiseone2 · 03-20-2006, 09:02 AM

Over at THe oTHer place a statement was made about a principal player leading a brass section. I know the conductor of that concert, we were born on the same day

He is not one to give the reins to ANYONE else. I can not imagine Toscanini being led from the back of the band. Fritz Reiner was one of the most dictatorial of conductors. Who led the Chicago Symphony brass section?
Who's the boss?
Wilmer

Manny Laureano · 03-20-2006, 09:42 AM

Without a doubt, Bud had the command and respect of the entire brass section but even he recognized that his position was that of simultaneous translator for Reiner and I would say the same goes for Glantz/Toscanini. Once a music director develops a sense of the capabilities of his brass section, he uses those capabilities like a tool for interpreting music. It's like a pianist with a choice between playing a no-name brand and a Steinway. More ability means more opportunity to express oneself and the orchestra is the conductor's piano.

I think Bud, when he completely respected a conductor, would do everything posible to go to work for that guy. If you got a pretty boy with a good agent instead up on the podium, he knew instinctively that you have to take charge and show how things are done in the CSO, so, stay out of the way, pal.

It's the only way to stay sane on the job. The relationship is symbiotic, I think and the better the conductor is, the more they trust you when they get to know your playing.

ML

Alex Yates · 03-20-2006, 10:40 AM

On the other side of the coin, you have players who THINK they are in charge and lock horns with conductors constantly. I know several who have been fired when they were young and cocky, and a few tenured blokes that would have been fired if it were possible. There have been some infamous tumultuous trumpet/conductor relationships in recent decades, but I don't want to name any names.

I enjoyed your posts Wilmer and Manny and they are a good explanation, but we all have run into players in the above category.

wiseone2 · 03-20-2006, 01:08 PM

Guys, listen to Manny!
A concert has to be rehearsed. The conductor's vision of the works on the program is communicated to the orchestra at this time. I like conductors who don't pull any surprises at performances. I have worked with a couple who were totally different at concerts than at rehearsals. One told the orchestra that his wife, a dancer, choreographed his moves on the podium. During a performance of Hary Janos, he put his hand on his hip and made circles above his head as though he riding a horse in a rodeo

During another movement he imitated the clock. I won't name names

Rehearsals are the key to what happens during performance.

Wilmer

Alex Yates · 03-20-2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiseone2

One told the orchestra that his wife, a dancer, choreographed his moves on the podium. During a performance of Hary Janos, he put his hand on his hip and made circles above his head as though he riding a horse in a rodeo

During another movement he imitated the clock. I won't name names

Rehearsals are the key to what happens during performance.

Wilmer

LOL about the choreography Wilmer. Surprises on concerts are the absolute worst. DON'T LOOK UP, DON'T LOOK UP. LOL.

On a serious note, you and Manny are absolutely correct. All of the musicians of the orchestra are keys of the maestro's piano and we come together to bring his/her concept/interpretation to life.

Veldkamp · 03-20-2006, 04:18 PM

I did a project with a (young) classical conductor who had to conduct a piece called "Harlem" written by Duke Ellington. He clearly never studied or heard the piece and I think he had never heard a swing piece anyway. He tried to explain me how I should play certain frases and notes. For me it was pretty clear I could not play like he wanted me to do. I became a really akward situation....

Alex Yates · 03-20-2006, 04:37 PM

It still stands that the conductor is in charge. A trumpeter can find himself suddenly in charge in certain rare situations, but in a perfect world, the conductor holds the cards.

TRUE STORY from recent history:
I know a very famous trumpeter who recorded a very famous piece (with a lot of exposed trumpet) under a very famous conductor. This conductor has a reputation for taking the life out of a certain composer's works with tempos that are excruciatingly slow. The end result? This very famous piece was recorded and forever memorialized. The trumpeter is not happy with the recording at all because none of his ideas were incorporated into the music. The conductor decided everything, much to the dismay of the trumpeter. When I listen to this recording, the slowness of the tempo literally makes me uneasy, like I want to push and help it along. This trumpeter is also an incredible musician, but most of his ideas were squelched.

Difficult position, eh?

Mzony · 03-21-2006, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trompetvrouw

. I know several who have been fired when they were young and cocky, and a few tenured blokes that would have been fired if it were possible. There have been some infamous tumultuous trumpet/conductor relationships in recent decades, but I don't want to name any names.

)

I hope you aren't thinking of me!

Alex Yates · 03-21-2006, 10:13 AM

Oh Gosh no Mzony!

I do know of several who came out of school with this ailment and one who even told a conductor to F*** off (and the trumpeter was definitely in the wrong). I assure you, I was not speaking of anyone here.

Solar Bell · 03-21-2006, 10:19 AM

Quote:

This trumpeter is also an incredible musician, but most of his ideas were squelched.

Mzony wrote:

Quote:

I hope you aren't thinking of me!

No she was talking about a different "incredible musician"!

-cw-

03-20-2006, 09:02 AM	#1 (permalink)
wiseone2 Artitst in Residence Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brooklyn,NY Posts: 2,366	Who's in charge? Over at THe oTHer place a statement was made about a principal player leading a brass section. I know the conductor of that concert, we were born on the same day He is not one to give the reins to ANYONE else. I can not imagine Toscanini being led from the back of the band. Fritz Reiner was one of the most dictatorial of conductors. Who led the Chicago Symphony brass section? Who's the boss? Wilmer __________________ Be sure Brain is engaged before putting Mouthpiece in gear. S.Suark 1951

03-20-2006, 01:08 PM	#4 (permalink)
wiseone2 Artitst in Residence Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brooklyn,NY Posts: 2,366	Guys, listen to Manny! A concert has to be rehearsed. The conductor's vision of the works on the program is communicated to the orchestra at this time. I like conductors who don't pull any surprises at performances. I have worked with a couple who were totally different at concerts than at rehearsals. One told the orchestra that his wife, a dancer, choreographed his moves on the podium. During a performance of Hary Janos, he put his hand on his hip and made circles above his head as though he riding a horse in a rodeo During another movement he imitated the clock. I won't name names Rehearsals are the key to what happens during performance. Wilmer __________________ Be sure Brain is engaged before putting Mouthpiece in gear. S.Suark 1951

03-20-2006, 04:18 PM	#6 (permalink)
Veldkamp Piano User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 379	I did a project with a (young) classical conductor who had to conduct a piece called "Harlem" written by Duke Ellington. He clearly never studied or heard the piece and I think he had never heard a swing piece anyway. He tried to explain me how I should play certain frases and notes. For me it was pretty clear I could not play like he wanted me to do. I became a really akward situation.... __________________ www.erikveldkamp.com http://trumpetkings.blogspot.com

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03-20-2006, 09:42 AM	#2 (permalink)
Manny Laureano Utimate User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,989	Without a doubt, Bud had the command and respect of the entire brass section but even he recognized that his position was that of simultaneous translator for Reiner and I would say the same goes for Glantz/Toscanini. Once a music director develops a sense of the capabilities of his brass section, he uses those capabilities like a tool for interpreting music. It's like a pianist with a choice between playing a no-name brand and a Steinway. More ability means more opportunity to express oneself and the orchestra is the conductor's piano. I think Bud, when he completely respected a conductor, would do everything posible to go to work for that guy. If you got a pretty boy with a good agent instead up on the podium, he knew instinctively that you have to take charge and show how things are done in the CSO, so, stay out of the way, pal. It's the only way to stay sane on the job. The relationship is symbiotic, I think and the better the conductor is, the more they trust you when they get to know your playing. ML

03-20-2006, 10:40 AM	#3 (permalink)
Alex Yates Forte User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 2,405	On the other side of the coin, you have players who THINK they are in charge and lock horns with conductors constantly. I know several who have been fired when they were young and cocky, and a few tenured blokes that would have been fired if it were possible. There have been some infamous tumultuous trumpet/conductor relationships in recent decades, but I don't want to name any names. I enjoyed your posts Wilmer and Manny and they are a good explanation, but we all have run into players in the above category.

03-20-2006, 04:37 PM	#7 (permalink)
Alex Yates Forte User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 2,405	It still stands that the conductor is in charge. A trumpeter can find himself suddenly in charge in certain rare situations, but in a perfect world, the conductor holds the cards. TRUE STORY from recent history: I know a very famous trumpeter who recorded a very famous piece (with a lot of exposed trumpet) under a very famous conductor. This conductor has a reputation for taking the life out of a certain composer's works with tempos that are excruciatingly slow. The end result? This very famous piece was recorded and forever memorialized. The trumpeter is not happy with the recording at all because none of his ideas were incorporated into the music. The conductor decided everything, much to the dismay of the trumpeter. When I listen to this recording, the slowness of the tempo literally makes me uneasy, like I want to push and help it along. This trumpeter is also an incredible musician, but most of his ideas were squelched. Difficult position, eh?

03-21-2006, 10:13 AM	#9 (permalink)
Alex Yates Forte User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 2,405	Oh Gosh no Mzony! I do know of several who came out of school with this ailment and one who even told a conductor to F*** off (and the trumpeter was definitely in the wrong). I assure you, I was not speaking of anyone here.

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