gregtrum84

Ed and others,

I don't usually post new topics on forums like these, but lately I've been musing on a few issues regarding music education in academia (i.e. teaching on the college level), and I was hoping for some insight and a thoughtful discussion from some of the people on this forum. Ed, I know you don't know me, so I hope you don't mind if I refer to you by your first name.

I'm currently in the last few months of a Master's degree in Trumpet Performance and I've had many people, in asking what my plans are for after graduation, ask if I'm interested in college teaching and pursuing a DMA. My answer has been a resounding no for the following reason(s):

I love teaching. I love helping others achieve their dreams. Unfortunately, my experience having been a part of academia for the past 6 years (4 years B.M, 2 year's M.M) has been that very often teaching on the college level is not focused on the students and teaching at all.

Instead, academia to me seems much more about ego, meeting student quotas, and other issues that don't directly benefit the students. For example, the excellent musician and trumpeter James Thompson would likely have difficulty working at a small college in my area of the country (North Carolina) because he does not have a DMA. If college teaching were really all about the students (as it should be), then the administration would focus on picking the best possible candidate for the job, irregardless of whether that candidate had a terminal degree.

I've seen a musician who I believe has sunk his heart and soul into a college music program, a fine musician who has a lot to say, be passed over for tenure by a small North Carolina school because the school was looking for faculty members with terminal degrees or commiserate international performance experience.

My current teacher (who only has a M.M.) was forced to prove that she had doctoral equivalency in order to win a job interview, and also in order to receive tenure at her previous position. This took the form of multiple 5 inch binders filled with just about every concert program she had ever done, multiple letters of recc, etc. This is a fine musician and educator who has significant international performing experience; why should she have to go to such great lengths to prove equivalency with a person who may have a DMA but absolutely no relevant performing experience?

I've seen many good, earnest, excellent musicians on faculty at major universities being constantly hamstrung by their administration. It seems that at many colleges administration takes the form of a listing of reasons why a good idea can't happen as opposed to working together to forge a compromise. I've seen many administrators that seem to be oblivious to the fact that their jobs exist to help and support the faculty and ultimately the students. The faculty and students do not exist to provide jobs for the administration.

I see many, many students paying a lot of money for higher education, and a system that seems content to take their money and not provide them with the absolute best education they can.

I did my undergraduate degree at Boston University studying with Terry Everson, and while I don't want to speak for him, I got the impression that he was fighting a constant battle with the administration to push ideas that would benefit the students through.

I'm currently finishing my M.M. at the UNC School of the Arts with Judy Saxton, and, while I don't speak for her, I'm under the impression that the administration is not fully supportive of her efforts either.

The point of all this is that in my opinion academia seems to be a broken system that has gotten away from it's original intent: to give each student the best possible education. I know that there are a few great universities and colleges (Mcgill and CalArts being two) that are the exception to the rule. I've been incredibly lucky with the quality of my education and I feel privileged to have the experiences I've had. Personally, I feel like my education has been worth every cent of debt I'm in right now. However, I'm concerned that I may be an exception here, and I worry about all the music students who maybe haven't been as fortunate in their educational experience. I'm gravely concerned at the large amounts of incompetence I see on the administrative level at many institutions. Everywhere I look I see great educators having to fight tooth and nail to get their ideas to work, and I see an army of higher administration that doesn't seem to be doing much except standing in their way.

I've obviously got strong opinions. My own bias aside, let's get a thoughtful and insightful discussion going on this issue.

My questions for Ed and others are these:

1) Do you agree with my above statements, i.e. do you feel that academia is a broken system? Why or why not?

2) If you're a musician who teaches on the college level, do you feel that academia is a broken system? Do you feel like the administration you work with helps or hinders your ability to educate? Do you feel like your experience is a common one that is representative of academia as a whole?

3) If you do agree, how can we as musicians and educators move forward and fix this broken system? Is there a way to make education serve the students again?

I'm looking forward to your comments and ideas!

Best,

Greg

Bear

1. Yes, it's a broken system. There is no more teaching the kids. They are expected to know the material from previous grade, which are expected to know the material from previous grades, which are.... It's all redundant, know one knows a thing. The schools are too busy trying to find funding and RAISING the kids to worry about finding the time to TEACH them. Students have to write papers without ever having to prove/disprove them, understand them, or even acknowledge WHY they are writing them. The common excuse "busy work" so the teacher can concentrate on their own paperwork. I'm not trying to start a fight but it seems as if our system of schooling is becoming more liberal and socialist. No one can be left behind, so the smart kids are getting bored/in trouble/dropping out of school. The dumb kids are getting dumber. The medium kids just do what they do to get out and flip burgers.

2. I am not a liscenced college teacher (yet) but I work with a lot of them and also high school. The administration does nothing to help the teachers. A student can hit the teacher and they barely get detention (which is a privildge/excuse to skip class). However, a teacher disciplines a kid (even verbally) and they can be fired/sued and lose their teaching positions for life. Something is wrong there. When did the student become more authorative than the teacher?

3. How to fix it?.... Lord, I don't know. One suggestion I would have is to try to incorporate as much learning (not just national standards, UIL rankings, etc) into the class as possible. It is amazing how many freshmen come in (both high school and college) who have never learned basic theory, literature, etc... It's amazing how many come in NOT KNOWING HOW TO PLAY THEIR INSUTRMENTS!!! What has the teacher/student been doing for 3-6 years?! Wow....

Tim

__________________
The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles, but to irrigate deserts.
-C. S. Lewis

Life is about learning; when you stop learning, you die. -Tom Clancy

And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
-Revelation 8:6

veery715

That those incoming students even know how to read or write is not open to debate. Skills which used to be taken for granted in high school graduates are now sadly absent. Critical thinking? Forget it.
v

gregtrum84

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies!

I would never dream of trying to moderate a discussion in a dedicated forum which is not my own, so if I'm stepping on Ed's toes here, I apologize:

I'm glad that there are other people out there who see some of the same problems I do. However, this will not be a productive discussion if it turns into a rant (which, as I know from experience, it is very easy to do when talking about a passionate and sensitive subject such as this!).

Notice that my question was in three parts. I believe the most important part of the three was the last: how do we move forward from here?

Therefore, in the interest of a positive and innovative discussion, can we consider following all agreements on the negative aspect of my question with some positive, innovative ideas on how to move forward into the future?

Ed, I placed this discussion in your dedicated forum because I think you'll have some very interesting ideas on this matter. When you get a free minute from your busy schedule I would love to hear your thoughts.

Just some things to think about.

Thanks!

Greg

ecarroll

Greg,

I'm delighted that you've started this discussion. Give me some time and I'll reply in detail to the best of my ability to do so (perhaps in multiple posts as this is a huge topic)

Best,
EC

miles71

First of all, I think this could be a great post. As I am typing this reply I try to fight the negative comments and discussing the lack of suport I see everyday in public (not college) schools. I am posting from my office at school, on a friday night. I am here so my kids and the Middle School programs kids can practice with the accomp. for our county Solo and Ensemble fest. tomorrow. Friday night from 6pm-9pm I will be here, not becuase I have to but because I should.

I have taught for 12 years as a HS Band Director and have a M.M. In that short time I have seen some scary, and also some amazing things. I have seriously considered moving to the College level, I think I would enjoy it a great deal and feel I have something to offer. Unfortunatley I would take a massive pay cut and I do not have a Doctorate, not having the terminal degree just takes me out of the running for any institution I have checked into.

I could go on for pages, telling stories of situations where good teachers where railroaded, bad teachers had to be kept around due to politics and tenure, and college professors are not excluded from this. But in an effort to look forward in to the future, I have a suggestion.

Universities and colleges need to hire faculty as teachers, not just performers or published authors, but also teachers. I believe to be a good teacher in music one must be able to perform, conduct, write music, etc. All the things that make a good musician can also make a good teacher, the efforts are just more focused on education than entertainment. Yes, a DMA or PHD may show a person has done the work, the research, and put in the time to be educated. But does that mean they are a good teacher. Colleges are supposed to be for learning!! Lets start looking for good educators able to foster the next generation of musicians and music educators, not just guys with some cool letters after their name.

Also, once these new prof.s are hired, let them earn that DMA or PHD at that institution or a sister institution. I am sure many would be happy to take a job at the university level if they where able to study and get a terminal degree while employeed. I believe many schools offer this, but they only hire people who already have the DMA!!!! WHAT????

Dont get me wrong, If I where to get the position of a University Wind Band guy I would try my best to make that group a world class ensemble, but not at the cost of education. I really think you can have both. Maybe I am just silly.

Sorry for the long post, but I really think some good educators are shut out of higher education because they have decided to be educators and not "jump through the hoops". I look forward to others responses.

TD

__________________
NYTC Stage 1 Endorsing Artist
www.domenicomusic.com

ecarroll

Greg,

Let me start by saying how much I appreciate your well thought-out question. There will be many seams in the fabric of your musical life and, with the end of your formal training in sight, this is one of them. I'm certain that you voice concerns shared by many in your positions. I would be doing the same if I were you.

That said, I'm sure by singling out the two schools of music that I teach at you you're aware that you're painting "academia" with a pretty wide brush. No two schools are the same, but all schools face similar issues at a time when professional prospects are contracting alongside their endowment based budgets.

Let me start by pricking one bubble of your argument and see where this takes us: Jim Thompson would have absolutely no trouble whatsoever in being hired at a small school in North Carolina without a terminal degree. I don't have one, Mark Gould (Juilliard/Manhattan) doesn't have one, Dave Bilger (Curtis) doesn't have one, nor do Jim Wilt (Colburn), Al Vizzutti (UWash), Jens Lindemann (UCLA), Ray Mase (Juilliard), Chris Gekker (UMd), yadda yadda. Faculty members are chosen first and foremost for their national/international profile based upon a career as a performer or, in the case of the late Dorothy Delay at Juilliard, their reputation as a teacher. The challenge facing the search committee at a small college in (fill in the blank) is that this well might be empty for them. The next obvious choice is to find candidates with a terminal degree or, in the case of many big city institutions, to hitch their wagon to the reputation of the local symphony orchestra and hire an adjunct.

I too have seen fine teachers denied tenure for one reason or another. The closest example in my life is a friend, Paul Moravec, who was denied tenure at Dartmouth and later one the Pulitzer Prize in Music. Take that, Dartmouth, but it happens.

Re Terry, Judy (who I've never met but heard good things about), and others fighting for money, deans and department heads field wonderful ideas on how to move their programs ahead all of the time. These deans have to fight for funding within the context of the entire university, however, and the provost looks after the entire organism. As an example, my old friend Bob Freeman (once president of Eastman) told me that as dean of the school of the arts at the University of Texas/Austin, he had to look out for a range of departments including art historians and the Longhorn Marching Band -- no small task. Now factor in Dartmouth reporting a $400 million hit to their endowment during the winter, and we quickly realize that we're only experiencing the tip of the arts and education funding disaster looming ahead. Things will eventually improve (knock wood) but short-range prospects ain't pretty.

Taking a deep breath, it seems from re-reading the above that I'm defending the status quo and am not. Most music schools (and, ahem, a quick glance at the College Music Society catalogue will reveal a whopping 1900+ that offer 4 year or more music degrees in North America) can and do only offer a broad, ensemble-based, music education that has, for reasons of logistics if not money, no room to cultivate the singular needs of the individual. We witnessed some of the highest of the high fliers at Lake Placid and, now, Chosen Vale, fold up like kites under the scrutiny of audiences and peers simply because they haven't had sufficient opportunity to play their own music their own way on anything but a final jury. This simply isn't good enough in today's ultra-competitive musical landscape.

I'm incredibly fortunate to teach at a school -- CalArts -- that is totally unique in that regard. Our students are treated as artists-in-training from the moment they arrive and we celebrate each individual voice, not the collective. I'm doing my best to bring as much of this ethic north of the border to McGill as well. The latter has better resources in terms of library, concert spaces, etc., but more bureaucracy as well. Think Harvard with a world-class music school and you'll get the picture. Sometimes change there moves with glacier-like swiftness, but we're all doing our best. I'm proudest, however, of Chosen Vale. The seminar, to me, is what a music school should strive to be -- an open forum, without agenda, for the exchange of musical ideas. I like to believe that we advance our trumpet art there.

More as thoughts come and discussion commences.

Have at it,
EC

miles71

EC,
We have never met and I am not a regular in this thread, but I want to say I am pleased to be talking with you about this. At least on an electronic sense

Your response does make me feel a bit better, but I do have a question. Why do I see announcements for openings at schools that all require DMA or terminal degrees? Even to be a pep band director? Is it something schools have to do?

Thanks again.
TD

__________________
NYTC Stage 1 Endorsing Artist
www.domenicomusic.com

ecarroll

Miles,

To my eye (and I served as an assistant dean for a short time at CalArts) it's a way for them to narrow the field. That's all. I'm sure that fine candidates are overlooked in the process.

Become a regular. I'm absolutely delighted that we're finally having a substantive discussion here. It's been too long :)

Best,
EC

mchs3d

Hmm.... maybe I'll add my two cents. I am a student at Brigham Young University in Provo, UT. Although our music school isn't a conservatory, I would argue that the School of Music (and the university in general) is very focused on the students. The education is rigorous, and the teachers are pretty experienced and top-rate. For example, my trumpet professor was principal with the Toledo Symphony for 20+ years. He only has a Masters. Also, there is quite a bit of money in the program, compared to other large universities. Every year we send out 5 (I think, don't quote me on this) performing groups to tour internationally. For example, I am in the Wind Symphony. This year we are touring Japan and South Korea. We will be performing in some of the finest venues in all of East Asia. Even despite the economic times, our tour has not had one day cut off of it. This is a wonderful experience that many of us are fortunate to have at BYU.