andredub

I posted this thread in Mr Carroll's forum mostly because I know him more than I know any other artists here! That aside I hope everyone responds to this, as I think its a topic that needs some serious thinking/re-thinking, and seeing how many times people here have questions about it, it should be tackled!

OK, let go.

The issue of mouthpiece placement, and teaching what the correct position for the mouthpiece on the lips is, seems to be open for variation. While playing on the red is an obvious problem (and it's no secret that you can damage the muscle tissue fairly easily by doing that) the question of how high to place is rarely addressed.
So is there a point where high is too high? YES this player says!

The high mouthpiece placement was often used as a cornet and flugelhorn embouchure, as it gives them a sweet a slightly lighter sound. This of course is thanks to the extra pipe wraps and deep mouthpieces that add warmth and depth to the horns. You can compare this embouchure to the French horn.
On the trumpet however, when the mouthpiece sits too high, it causes far too much restriction of the lower lip. The lower lip is responsible for not only much of a players flexibility, but also adds clarity and depth (or meat) to the sound. This is why the biggest drawback of this high placement is a fuzzy/cloudy sound, especially in the pp-mf volumes. (It is the reason why when people play in the red, they have trouble changing. With so much lower lip freedom, they generally sound and feel pretty good!). Another problem associated with high placement is difficulty playing in the upper register without sounding forced and thin. While the upper register is attainable, it seems as though there is far more resistance in the instrument, and clarity of attacks in the middle and high registers is lost. It is especially hard to play with any bounce in your articulation cleanly. Soft articulations suffer greatly as well. Players will often try to fix this by playing louder.
While developing good air support can help with a high embouchure, it cannot fix the issue completely. The lower lip must be free to vibrate and stretch to produce clarity, flexibility, and brilliance of sound to supplement air management.

So where is the right place to put the mouthpiece? The ring it creates should be just a tiny bit above where the red and white of your upper lip connects. There is a SMALL bit of room where you can choose to go higher depending on feel. In the end, its about having lots of lower lip for clarity, depth and flexibility, so the room for variation is very very small.
I hope that this will open doors for discussion and change in approach to embouchure, as well as approach to teaching basics. The change to playing is monumental when you free up that lower lip.

-Andre

ecarroll

Andre,

Hello from Los Angeles.

I never have thought you to be one who thinks so carefully about such things (natural players rarely do) (until they teach). I'm impressed.

East and West have never bothered me much in mouthpiece placement but, as you correctly identify, North and South are critical. The lip can't buzz effectively if the rim is on the red. I'm trying to remember if I've ever had a student that played too low in the mouthpiece (mostly top lip) and am coming up blank. Most play to high (mostly lower lip), perhaps for reasons that you've identified.

Hmmm.....others?

Best,
EC

trptguru

I am a player who some would say plays in the red, but where is that line drawn? My top lip rolls out a little when I play so I end up playing a little on the inside of my upper lip. I have a permanent ring from where the mouthpiece rests and it is all inside the red (as far as the upper lip goes..the lower lip is below the red). However I don't feel like I have caused any problems or will have any problems with my lip in the future. It doesn't feel like a pinch. I have always been of the mindset that there are certain ways to play which are most definately wrong, but it is more of a comfort thing with mouthpiece placement, and if you can learn to play comfortably and beautifully with whatever embouchure setting you use, then it is a success.

ecarroll

Guru,

Take a look at Philip Farkas' old treatise "The Art of Brass Playing" if you have a chance. The photos within will reveal a WIDE variety of embouchures with one thing in common -- they all work. If you're playing the way you've described above then congratulations, you've solved it.

We are speaking in gross generalities whenever we write about such things as trumpet technique online. There are general principles to discuss and consider but each of us must find our own unique way.

Best,
EC

rowuk

I think the issue of where to place the mouthpiece has a lot to do with how long that you have been playing AND what type of results that you are getting.
When starting a beginner, we can pay some attention to placement. the further a player advances, the more difficult it is to predict what will happen when changing. If you have been playing for 10 years and can get around the horn fairly well, it is probably not worth taking any drastic measures. Working on your breathing will minimize the amount of work the chops have to do.
I am not an advocate of self-help embouchure changes. there are too many things that can go wrong and then you have the worst of both worlds!!

andredub

While I agree on some points Rowuk, I think chop placement should be taken more seriously, and scrutinized more. I noticed that a couple of the older Juilliard teachers changed up some embouchures on some monster players. It makes me think they put more value in it then we do now days (I hope Mr Hooten chimes in here, as I believe he mentioned going through a change). Over the years that I studied with Gerald Webster, which lasted about 8, I saw many people, some who had been playing many years (and some of them very well), change their embouchure in the way I described above, with the ring resting just about the area where the red and white connect on the upper lip. He stressed the importance of this frequently, and the degree of change he allowed was quite a bit less than most of his students expected. Without exception, it made a monumental difference. While even Mr Webster maintained air stream as the fundamental tool of trumpet playing, and provides some help if your embouchure is not quite in order, he described it as driving an expensive nice car, and filling it with bad gas! You can achieve comfort with even the most awkward placement, and that makes the comfort test a potentially dangerous one.

Mr Carroll, did you know anyone during your Juilliard days who went through changes, or perhaps what the teachers said about mouthpiece placement? Did any teacher in particular have a very strict concept?

-Andre
p.s. I meant high placement as too much upper lip in the mouthpiece. I got it backwards maybe If there is too much upper lip, you get the pinched feel and fuzzy sound. Hope that will clear up any confusion.

Veldkamp

I would recommend to watch this video of Arnold Jacobs:

Welcome to WindSong Press

Next to that take a look at the embouchure of Terryl Stafford. It seems to me he has no problems playing off center:

YouTube - Trumpet Summit '04

BTW I thought I read somewhere Jon Faddis has a hole in his lip. Talking about strong embouchures...

andredub

I'm not talking east west, which I have not really studied to a great extent. But look at where it sits up/down. Tons of lower lip. Notice when the 2nd (no clue who it is, I only recognize Faddis and Blanchard!) guy takes the mouthpiece off, where the white is, and I'd bet my trumpets that the ring on the top lip sits right above where the 2 tissues connect. A perfect example of that placement adding meat to the sound and easy to playing!

dambly

(!) The soloists are listed correctly, in order, in the YouTube comments:

Roy Hargrove
Randy Brecker
Jon Faddis
Lew Soloff
Terence Blanchard
Terrell Stafford

I'd suggest checking them all out...

andredub

I meant, check out the guy with the 1st long solo, with long hair! My mistake....yet again!