mazzrick

Ed,

So I'm in the middle of rehearsals for a piece that requires descending lines going from high C concert down to low Ab (pedal note on picc). This piece has 86 (yes I counted) high C's, most of them out of nowhere with falls and it's on a program with a bunch of other things, so I decided to play a lot of it on piccolo. I started wondering what the possibilities were for getting a better sound on piccolo trumpet in the lower range. I had thought of asking this before as to the lower notes (d's very often) in baroque music when we're using piccolo trumpet. I don't really know if there's a way to get the sound to be more normal or constant with the instrument when using the 4th valve in that bottom octave but it might be a nice topic to think about.

Matt

Trumpet guy

Have you tried pulling the A pipe further out to G and transposing? That would allow you to get the low Ab but still hit the high concert Cs as Fs. Also there's the possibility of have a ring installed on the fourth slide and using it to tune the lower notes (similar to the third slide function on the regular trumpet).

__________________


Daniel Lan
"If you're not improving, you're falling behind." - My Trumpet Teacher, Steve
------------------------------------
Horns
Bach Strad 37 - Schilke 22, Wedge 3C
Bach TR300 (collecting dust)
Berkeley Cornet - Factory Moutphiece
Berkeley Picc. Trumpet - Factory Mouthpiece
Jupiter Soprano Trombone - Schilke 22
Olds Ambassador Fullerton Trombone - Olds 12C

Pedal C

Is there a second trumpet player that can take the end of those lines?

Depending on the other notes in the line (and make of your horn) you can swap the third and fourth slides and basically have two fourth valves. I'm too tired right now to figure out if that would give you what you need, but it's a idea...

__________________
"The oboe's A is to make sure we still play it 1 and 2" - Bud Herseth

"One way or another, every patient stops bleeding." - Scrubs

cobragamer

man u guys think of everything.

__________________
Bach Stradivarius Trumpet
Yamaha Xeno Cornet
Yamaha Artist Model Bobby Shew Flugel Horn

trumpetnick

Matt,
Have you thought of using a bigger trumpet? C, D, E flat, F or G trumpet (assuming that you got access to any of these)?

__________________
Spada Bach B flat 72, leadpipe 2L/DWMM1.5C
Spada Bach C 256, leadpipe 2LQ/DWMM1.5C
1956 Olds Ambassador Cornet
Spada Custom Piccolo

If you don't know where you are going, you 'll end up someplace else

ecarroll

Matt,

Tell us about more about the piece and who you're playing it with?

The advice above re playing it on another trumpet (4-valve Eb, 4-valve G? -- you know how I love those particular trumpets) might be sound, but I'm assuming by the title of the thread that you're asking a generic question about gaining/improving sound in the low range on the piccolo.

I've always considered the 4th valve of any instrument set up in this fashion as an auxiliary valve. It doesn't have to be a 4th, as you know, and both of my 4-valve Ebs have alternative whole step slides, similar to Maurice Andre's piccolo. I suppose you could, as suggested above, add any length of pipe to the 4th valve to gain low notes and avoid pedals. At some point the math of the horn re the size of the bell is going to suffer. It would be a fun exercise for someone to try, however.

Pondering,
EC

rowuk

Matt,
if it is "only" a high C, a deeper or Vee shaped cup may be a solution. The lower octave sounds ratty because of the small bell not "launching" the fundementals very well. A Vee shaped cup would tone down the overtones and give you a more even, fuller sound.

I like doing stuff like this (or Bolero, Rite of Spring, Pulcinella, etc.) on the D-Trumpet. I have a medium bore Selmer Radial 2 degrees that works perfectly.

__________________
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

mazzrick

To all,

I was more mentioning the piece, as Ed caught, as an impetus to launch this topic. The piece itself isn't actually an issue. I was more looking for any ways to improve the low range. Robin, the vee cup could be a good idea. I use the Laskey "picc" mouthpiece. That's the size, "picc." It could be quite small or shallow but
i like it for most things. But I realize that almost every "trumpet shall sound" or any baroque piece played on picc sounds not so great on the lower D (played F). Is there any actual suggestions for improving the sound quality through playing? Or are we really just left with changing or altering the equipment?

Ed,

The piece is by Ondrej Adamek, who studied at the Paris Conservatory but might or might not be french. He won a composition competition for the Lucerne Festival Acadmey and we're playing this piece with Boulez who doesn't seem to like it very much. It's mostly effects, drums under water, slapping the mouthpiece with the hand, and col lengo things in the strings. The trumpet part is often in slightly delayed unison lines with the flute and clarinet, hence using the piccolo. Then we do these accelerating descending lines from high C downwards (triplet, quintuplet, 16ths, and the last note is an 8th with a arrow pointing down). Lots of full overtone falls too in a ripple effect throughout the brass. The pedal note sits perfectly actually, and almost sounds better than the notes with the 4th valve. We'll also play a brass octet in the room with the statue of nike in the Louvre (on Boulez's path through the museum) in November along with a Gabrielli piece that this octet is slightly based it on.

Matt

mahaberio

hi matt,

this is an intriguing question and, while i don't have any answers for you, i'm going through this same problem myself. i recently returned to playing some picc after a long hiatus and the biggest issue i'm dealing with is sound. it's also a problem because the piece i'm playing goes over the entire range of the instrument, so a different mouthpiece to improve the sound in x range is out of the question as it will likely have the opposite effect on the other register. i'll keep working and maybe we can keep in touch on each other's thoughts/progress.

-matthew

p.s. the program sounds really cool and very exciting. what ensemble are you working with?

rowuk

Matt,
I find the rotary piccs generally have a much better balance than the piston models. The gold brass bell REALLY makes a big difference in the overall smoothness. I talked to Andrew Naumann and the designer from Schilke about a P7 with a gold brass bell, they said probably not - a shame! The next thing that immediately comes to mind is the "approach" to the picc. Many players push the same amount of air through that small horn as with a Bb or C. Perhaps you do not "need" the amount of loudness when performing that you are used to cranking out. Sometimes backing off only a couple of decibels solves the problem.
The real issue is the size and shape of the bell. "Launching" low notes technically needs a certain diameter, which is a disadvantage upstairs. Maybe instrument builders should revisit picc design (I think so anyway)!

__________________
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.