ckallmyer

Happy Season to Ed and greater TM-community,

As dreams of sugar-plums dancing in my head receded this winter, they were replaced by dreams of vintage cornets and wacky new music(improvised and otherwise).

Point 1
i know absolutely nothing about antique instruments. Is there anything I should know as one completely inexperienced with 100 year old instruments?
Here is a link of a cornet in my price range. It looks to me like a mouthpieces might not even be able to get by the shepherd's crook to my face from the SHORT leadpipe. Are other there things I should think about in buying a cornet like this?

Antique 19th Century A. Hilleron Paris Bb Brass Cornet - (eBay item 270196225820 end time Dec-31-07 19:30:00 PST)

point #2.
In an age where I can play a state of the art, free-blowing, in-tune yamaha trumpet with no leaks--why pick up a 100 year old, stuffy, beat-up, out of tune cornet? Is there value and merit here?

--as an idealistic young man I would think that it can add a certain personality to your music(improv, jazz or otherwise), and because the handmade instrument(unique in its advantages and problems) could give the performer new materials, sonorities and challenges that modern instruments don't approach.
OR
they are not worth the trouble.

Having no experience, ideas are welcome. Hope you all have a great new year,

-chris

ecarroll

Chris,

The horn listed on eBay doesn't have a leadpipe. You might contact the seller and ask if it comes with one.

A few famous trumpeters come to mind that prefer an instrument that doesn't "slot" like a modern (insert maker here). They like the freedom of placing the note where they themselves choose. That said, each older horn has it's own characteristic sound, response, and profile. It's difficult to generalize if such a beast would work for what you plan for it and might be dangerous to buy over eBay for precisely that reason. As a collector, sure. As a player. . . (m a y b e).

I'm looking forward to reading more responses.

Best,
EC

beaukoo

As someone who has purchased a few unplayable vintage instruments through eBay, I agree with this wholeheartedly. It's always better if you can play test it first. Barring that, I would recommend a reputable online dealer of vintage instruments.

Dave Brewer

ecarroll

Dave,

Judging by his documentation -- and other vintage horns for sale -- I believe this to be a reputable dealer. It must be considered, however, that many fine people collect these cornets for reasons other than their playing ability and believe that Chris is hatching a plan to produce dulcet tones on whatever he finds.

If I were he I'd pick myself up a fine Carol pocket trumpet . . . but that's just me :-X

Best,
EC

Vulgano Brother

I have an old (1895) Holton cornet, and with either a funky old V-cupped-flat rimmed mouthpiece or a more modern small shanked Selmer it has a sound that none of my modern instruments can match. Does it get used? Hardly, but it sure is fun!

Lezwoymn

I know some have used Ebay with success. But, I have heard many horror stories. You never know what u'r getting and some pictures don't show the true condition. I'd stay away from Ebay for a trumpet, but that's just me.

ckallmyer

Ed and All,

I am weary about using ebay as well--it seems like there are too many variables to buy a horn over the internet(also my dad recently bought a vintage car on ebay and kinda got screwed--his 'no rust' P1800 turned out to be a mess underneath a fine coat of paint)---so it seems if I buy a cornet, i might need to find a dealer in my area in DC or LA. I appreciate all of the advice and will continue to watch the thread. Thanks all.

Certainly a Carroll pocket trumpet would be ideal, but I just haven't seen any in my price range. . .

best,
-chris

PS- maybe I should mention my plan for the instrument:
I'm a student at CalArts and am working with composers who are asking me to improvise in really unique situations. My trumpet is working out great for this, but it occurred to me that having another brass instrument in my toolkit would offer some other sonic possibilities while playing with digital tape, amplified toys or other avant-garde chamber situations. I really like what people like Taylor Ho Bynum are doing with cornet. And I love the sound of the thing.

ecarroll

Chris,

I've heard through the grapevine that the surviving 3 members of the Shaker Seven will all be playing Carol pocket trumpets next summer. You need to get with the program. . .

xo,
EC

Dale Proctor

Having quite a bit of experience with antique cornets, I'll give you my opinion.....maybe 1 in 100 that you play will be anything you'd even consider playing in public in a modern music setting. First, it was probably made to play in high pitch, so it won't easily tune to 440. Those turn of the century ones that have both high and low pitch bits are primarily high pitch instruments and play out of tune with themselves even when using the low-pitch bit and pulling the slides a little. The one you're looking at has no bit shown, so if it's missing, you'll need to have one made, which will cost about $40 if you're lucky.

Speaking of cost, there's a good chance the valves are worn and leaky, too, so there's another $300 repair bill. Once it's in good playing condition, you'll have to deal with problematic intonation, a tone you don't like (many horns from this era are brighter than you'd imagine), and a projection problem - they don't like to be played loudly.

Anyway, that's my take on it. If I were you, I'd find a nice modern cornet and try it with a proper cornet mouthpiece, maybe even an old one from the turn of the century. The mouthpiece will go a long way in getting that "antique sound" you're after, even on a newer cornet. I play a circa 1870 Henry Lehnert cornet with a Civil War band, and it's actually a pretty good playing horn when using the period mouthpiece. I've played 20 or 30 cornets made from the 1850's thru the 1910's, and this one is the best I've tried (and it's a looker ). I still wouldn't play it in a modern setting, though. My Bach 184G short cornet fills that requirement very nicely.

The guy on the video sounds good, though, doesn't he?

1870 H. Lehnert SARV cornet

dambly

Hi Chris,

If it's new sounds (and not necessarily a new horn) you're after, why not investigate ways to get a more cornet-like sound from your trumpet?

For example, I've had great success with a Curry TF mouthpiece on both my B-flat and C trumpets. Check out Mark's description of his TC and TF model mouthpieces on his website (Curry Precision Mouthpieces).

Also, have you exhausted the possibilities offered by various mutes (such as the Jo-Ral bucket or the EaZy bucket mute)?

Any of these things would cost much less (and be much more portable) than even an antique cornet...