southsidejazz

For many, many years I have religiously collected and played Olds trumpets. As of yesterday I now have 34. I love them dearly. At the end of August my house was broken into, and amongst the things taken was one of my favourite Olds horns. The insurance money had to be spent on a replacement instrument, and after trying fourteen different horns owned by fellow musicians or supplied by manufacturers, I settled on a Taylor Chicago Standard large bore. It is now my horn of choice. Many of my fellow players have blown the model I had on approval and have loved it, claiming it was far better then their own instruments (amongst these were a "Wild Thing", a Monette, an Eclipse, a Lawler, a couple of Bach's, several Yamaha's, and a couple of Kanstul's). However, I have had so much abuse from players about the weight of a Taylor and it's inherrant lack of brightness. I can get a bright sound from my Taylor, and got used to it's weight after only a week. Why are heavy horns so maligned? They play and project so much better than standard (32 - 40oz) trumpets. I am not willing to experience the personal attacks some guys have experienced on this forum, so constructive comments only please.

southsidejazz

For many, many years I have religiously collected and played Olds trumpets. As of yesterday I now have 34. I love them dearly. At the end of August my house was broken into, and amongst the things taken was one of my favourite Olds horns. The insurance money had to be spent on a replacement instrument, and after trying fourteen different horns owned by fellow musicians or supplied by manufacturers, I settled on a Taylor Chicago Standard large bore. It is now my horn of choice. Many of my fellow players have blown the model I had on approval and have loved it, claiming it was far better then their own instruments (amongst these were a "Wild Thing", a Monette, an Eclipse, a Lawler, a couple of Bach's, several Yamaha's, and a couple of Kanstul's). However, I have had so much abuse from players about the weight of a Taylor and it's inherrant lack of brightness. I can get a bright sound from my Taylor, and got used to it's weight after only a week. Andy Taylor will create a horn to your own unique specification, and is really very good at what he does. His horns are very different to Monettes and other horns.

Why are heavy horns so maligned? They play and project so much better than standard (32 - 40oz) trumpets. I am not willing to experience the personal attacks some guys have experienced on this forum, so constructive comments only please.

Solar Bell

Welcome to TrumpetMaster!!

There is nothing wrong with a heavy trumpet.

The problem is with people. Most guys tend to put down whatever equipment they do not use. If they use a lightweight horn, heavy horns are junk. If they play brand "A", nothing else is as good. Play and enjoy what works for you and don't worry about what other people think.

A friend of mine is a real "Schilke Loyalist", he talked me into buying a Schilke trumpet after playing a Courtois for over 20 years. Guess what? The Schilke was a great horn! When I switched to a Lawler, he proclaimed that Lawlers were nowhere near the quality of Schilke. Boy was HE wrong. When I got my Eclipse, he refused to even try it out, said he "heard bad things about those horns". I really don't think he had really ever heard OF them! I left the Eclipse in the music store showroom with another friend while I spoke with someone in the repair shop. When I came back front he had the first valve slide off and was blowing through it trying to find leaks. After he left the store owner said that that person had declared the Eclipse a "peice of junk". He reputation suffered with the staff after that.

It wouldn't matter what I brought in, if it wasn't a Schilke, to him it was junk.

That's how people are....put down what you don't have....especially if it costs more than what you play, or can afford.

-cw-

rowuk

The "fear" of heavy horns is not fear at all. It is either an opinion without proper substantiated base or for the players that gave them a fair chance, a bad experience in a section. This being said, many of us have had very good experiences with heavy horns and are just tired about getting stupid comments about what people think is best for others-without even knowing what or how they play.

The first condition involves hearsay, jealosy or a firm belief that an expensive trumpet is not necessary (also called Monette bashing on other posts). There are a lot of these people out there and it makes no sense to try and educate them. Just like the argument whether a Porsche or Corvette is better, only people that have in fact seriously tried both for an extended period of time are qualified to answer. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, I am personally only interested in the qualified ones however.

The second condition is dependent on REAL factors - most of which are attributed to "blending" but may be something else. I have played a Monette Ajna 2 since 1998 (a heavy horn by any measure). I play everything from lead in a big band to classical and have had mixed results. Where the second player has a ML bore instrument or a medium to small mouthpiece, I have experienced instances where they say they cannot hear themselves very well. High quality recordings show real no "blending" issues but I believe the "thicker" sound of a heavy large bore trumpet can mask the tone of a "thinner" setup. This hearing insecurity is real for the player with the lighter horn and is probably the genuine issue.
When playing lead, I find the Ajna to be more work than a lighter horn, probably due to the effort involved in trying to thin out the thick sound. A lighter horn fits this sound concept better. Eric Veldkamp has done a great job describing this in other posts. He gave a Monette 993 a fair chance and found his Bach better for what he was playing (jazz band lead for instance).

One other possible reason is the belief that regardless of what horn you play, after a while you adjust and get the same "sound" that you had before. I can prove that each type of instrument has its own "frequency response" and the end result is that each horn sounds different to the audience regardless of what the musician has as a concept. This does not mean that you can't identify the player by his sound, the overtone proportions and "spread" of the sound are dependent on the instrument and the players signature is other factors like smoothness, attack, elegance and only to a certain extent "color". Proof of this is on the Monette website where Manny Laureano plays the current Prana models. He has a super stable sound concept and chops, is in to Monette horns - each trumpet sounds different.

southsidejazz

Thankyou for your measured response. Do you feel that sometimes people just get a bit excited about the marketing of horns and testosterone levels have something to do with their choice? An example would be Flip Oakes calling his very good instrument a "Wild Thing", which conjures up images of a wild stallion just waiting to be controlled by a dominant male!

Alex Yates

Hmmmmm......never thought of it that way.

(Rowuk, your response was wonderful. Some good points to ponder)

Dave

Now, Alex, I think we all think of you as our Wild Thing ;D Dominant males are not required.

rowuk

I think the human species has a wonderful trait called "belief". It makes religion, the arts and just about anything else unique to mankind possible. As with any emotion, it is subject to outside influences making them stretchable to be positive or negative. I do consider any type of "bashing" emotional, equally people that are "in love" with a piece of brass called trumpet are just as emotional.
The true love affair - getting intimate with the horn/concept/manufacturer I think can scare people that have little or no real "affinity" to anything else whether it be a trumpet or not. A trumpet player that REALLY loves his Bach can empathize with someone that loves his Taylor, Eclipse or Monette. For people who just think Bach is a great ax (I mean no love affair), I can see where they just do not understand what all the fuss is about.
Putting down "state of the art" is also a way to compensate for ones own "inferiority". Yes "bashers" are inferior. Constructive criticism is not one of the tools of the basher.
Testosterone can intensify the emotional state - not always for the good of trumpet player or ensemble in front of them. Good point about Flip Oakes.
The best teachers have students where the fire has been lit. The best performers can spread the passion with their playing. If your heavier horn increases the passion of your performance - everybody wins!

Alex Yates

Oooooooweeee! You makin' me blush Dave! I think I should say "shucks and thank you"..............

Thanks! LOL!

Don Herman

One thing which I believe (there's that "belief" thing again...) is that the heavier horns, and particularly their bells, do not vibrate as much as a lighter horn. This sends more energy out to the audience but may reduce the feedback to the player (thus the "dead" opinion from players that has not generally been borne out by listeners out front). The reduced vibration will also affect the overtone (it's not strictly harmonic) series and thus the sound.

Neither of these is good or bad, but will affect how one plays a heavy horn. I have insufficient experience to judge, but suspect a player must take some time to settle in and obtain his/her sound without as much feedback from the horn. A friend with ears and/or recording setup can probably speed the acclimation process...

Acoustically, from an engineering standpoint, a concrete bell with the same flare as any other material should sound the same out front except for the energy "lost" to the vibrating bell of "lighter weight" horns. The player would get almost no feedback from the horn and would have to have a well-developed sense of his/her sound without that feedback. I suppose a sheet of plastic, or the stand, might reflect some energy back and help out. But, of course, concrete has other, less desirable properties for trumpet players, 'specially weak ones like me... :)

All IMHO, FWIWFM, blah blah blah - Don