rowuk

B15,
I have a different take on this. If we try to figure out what the problem is, I'll bet it isn't the notes that you played. What the sax player was probably REALLY saying is that what you did was "too noticable". If that only had to do with how loud you were, you coud have ignored it.

The best lead players that I have played with NEVER talked about liberties AND didn't always play the ink. What was uncanny is that NOTHING ever stuck out. Their timing always fit the groove, articulation put the edge on what the rest of the band was doing and they were THE single point of orientation.

The changes that they did make were cleared up BEFORE, allowing the group to work with a common voice.

I think lead players have the same responsibilities as the rhythm section. Their freedoms are not a changed game plan with no prior warning. The GROOVE determines what is acceptable. The lead player has to be 120% predictable. THAT is what the sax player was trying to tell you.

If you have a great idea, or if the playing is square, announce it BEFORE you do it. That is different than asking permission!

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fraserhutch

There are some great points here, IMHO. (And this is all in my very humble opinion):

What I think you're really trying to do as a lead player is be consistent above all. Remember, the section is trying to follow you and play as a section. If you gliss up to a note unexpectedly, it's too late for the guys to follow. If you have communicated intent and do it consistently, or do it consistently, be KNOWN for being consistent and have a section that really knows how to follow and will pick it up, that's one thing. If it's a by the seat of your pants type of call, then in my very humble opinion, thaty not what good lead playing is about at all.

And I agree 100% - a good lead player knows how to make something NOT sound square.

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B15M

Since I started this thread I got some help from a lead studio player. I met him on a job and asked if he would help me with this specific question.

I played a section of a tune and he asked why I put this or that in. I told him that I thought if I played it as written it would sound square. I played it again exactly as written and looked at him. He said. "It didn't sound square, it sounded clean"

After the advice here and the advice from him, I have been playing everything as written.

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trumpetnick

After all, is not that bad to play exactly as written, is it?

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BenH

Brilliant.

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NickD

All great advice throughout. Let me chime in.

OK, I tend to grandstand more that I should at times, but in general, I stick to the ink. On the big bands I play there are plenty of charts where there are some changes to scream over, so on the written part, I play the ink. Here is where I draw the line.

If this is a PAYING GIG - grown up money - I PLAY THE INK and I don't even think about liberties unless there are changes on my part. Even then, I consider the room and the gig. I want that contractor to call me back as an enhancement of the job and not think of me as a distraction. I can't say that I have always lived this way and back in the day, I DID loose work over showing off tastelessly. Boy, I did some stupid stuff way back when! Hindsight 20/20! In any case, I would never want any younger player to have to learn that way.

On gigs where I'm playing for extreme short bread or even no bread (community big band rehearsals for a buddy), I MIGHT take more liberties on some unison passages, perhaps, of the style of the tune warrants it, and I'm playing lead (there are a couple of spots on Buddy Rich's Love For Sale that come to mind as examples).

Here's another thing. I never, NEVER, EVER, try to top the lead player! I know this may sound childish, but it still happens to me! On a couple of bands, there are still a couple of guys who feel it is ok to try to hit a non-written high note over me when I'm playing lead! Now these scenarios have been the no-bread things, so I don't begrudge their having a bit of fun, but seriously folks! It is really uncool. One of these guys has turned up on paying gigs and done that, and I have leaned over and said, I'll pass you some lead, but don't do that anymore.

On most gigs I play I don't set up on the lead book. I make a bee-line for the 2nd or 3rd book - where I can find changes to play. So, I play the ink. It is rarely a question for me anymore.

Good thread.

Peace.

Nick

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Solar Bell

In our band the last jazz book player used to make a habit of going over me...capping...the last note. He was a decent player, and we are a very busy and very well paid band. (6 brass) We finally let him go.

On more than one occassion I have use used Mike Williams, lead player of the Basie band or Patrick Hession on the 2nd or third book. These are world class lead players who live above Double C.

Neither Mike or Patrick has ever played over my lead part on a gig.

Real Professionals!

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rowuk

A true success story! Chuck has to PAY people to play lower than he does!

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operagost

It's under your left hand. You just pull backward REALLY HARD.

..

..

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derekkress

Great post. Good advice! I would just like to add one thing and it is my experience with great lead players. I had the opportunity to play with the late Arnie Chykowski (lead player Rob McConnell and The Boss Brass, session player Toronto). Players like him just make it easy to play in the section since everything is laid down just right! A true lead! And no surprises! Lead =freedom=discipline!

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