Jon Crowley

Hi Ingrid,

I was wondering what your views on jazz as a language were? Do you think all players should learn 'the bebop language'? Is there a 'modern' language of ideas and ways to play that should be addressed as well? Do you think it is important to transcribe?(I know this last one seems like an obviously 'yes' but I know that Joe Lovano doesn't transcribe, and I hear David Binney is also not into it...and both have very unique voices


I ask, because for me, even though I love and still listen to the greats(Clifford,Freddie,Diz, Miles etc), I've been very attracted to the playing of Alex Sipiagin, Woody Shaw, John Swana, and you...and you all seem to be playing half tradition and half of your own thing. So I was curious about your feelings on reconciling language with musical identity.

gridjam

Interesting question Jon. I did it all and still do. Not so much writing down the solos as I did when I was in my teens and early 20's, but more sitting at the piano picking out melodies and chords or playing along on my trumpet until I get the solo (and my ears) up to snuff. (Have been playing along with the Bird Verve discs as of late).
It's all about ear-training and finding new areas of inspiration for me when I transcribe or play along with something. Sometimes I find weak areas in my time, technique, whatever...I'm not sure how should to interpret what Dave and Joe are saying; are they referring to solos or tunes or all of it? It's pretty safe to say that they had to get their vocabulary from someone, somewhere and that they copied or played along with someone at some point. I don't buy it when people say they never transcribed, that would be like saying that we learned how to say Mama or cookie all by ourselves when we were learning how to talk. I do buy the idea of going for your own voice and that means having the freedom (technically and ear-wise) to execute what you are truly hearing in the moment. If someone is getting ALL of their vocabulary from their transcriptions and not practicing and playing in a way that is creative and free they can end up getting stuck in clone land. I see and hear that a lot! I remember being at the old Birdland (uptown) and hearing a guy play a solo (on the gig) I had just been lifting-note for note, adding nothing of his own voice to it- I got so mad and left.
Not to say that I don't launch into that GREAT and FUN feeling of being Miles or Freddie (or any of the greats I absorbed while disappearing into their recordings) if the moment and the band I'm playing with leads me to it. As far as bebop goes, I do think we should study it; along with every other important style of music that has been documented for us along the way.The modern language you mentioned is a result of all of it and the players you are hearing it in are the result of evolutional playing, NOT recititative playing. Whew- that was long! Lastly, if you hear something and it moves you! Learn it, love it and let it go!

Brekelefuw

I remember a few years ago in a solo performance class I was taking in college, a sax player got up to play his song and played a memorized lift of a very famous sax solo (I can't remember which tune it was) and he seemed to act like it was his own solo. The teacher, who is also a sax player reamed him for it. I don't think he did it again.
I can understand quoting solos a bit when you play, but outright repeating them as your own is pretty lame.

JunkyT

Beautifully put, Ingrid!

trpt2345

The way you learn to talk is by mimicing and spitting back what you hear. Same way learning the language of jazz. It's like learning to speak French or something, you can get a lot of words and speak correctly but with an accent that everyone can identify. It takes a long time to get rid of the accent and sound like it's your native language. Bill Dobbins always loved that analogy. The accent is getting the phrasing really right. Swinging, in other words. I had a concert with my kids yesterday, and the piano player was doing something on one tune that really swung. I mean like an old timer, I was so proud of him. He's going to Juilliard in the fall, look for him in the new downbeat coming out next week, his name is Jeremy Jordan.

Michael McLaughlin

Jon Crowley

Thanks for answering my question Ingrid,

That's a cool view of transcribing, not to cop stuff so you can drop it in a solo necessarily but so you can hear anything and execute: like ear training.

This definitly goes with some recent dissatisfication I've felt about going out to clubs and hearing people play ONLY pre 60's vocabulary when its 2007!

If I'm not misreading your responce, it sounds like you also feel that a player has to find the things he/she wants to play and in a sense develope their own vocabulary(or at least try to)

I guess the real challenge today is with so many styles and types of music readily available, it is difficult to absorb it all. It seems like as every generation comes and goes there is more and more to absorb.

time to practice....

BergeronWannabe

Hi Ingrid,
I read something on another site that got me thinking...I'm just starting to transcribe and it takes me forever to write it down. Should I not be doing that? Also, how many would you say you've done?
Thanks,
-Andrew

gridjam

Hmm, if it's taking you too long Andrew, you might be attempting a solo that's a bit beyond your ears and fingers? The fist solo I tried to lift was Trane's solo on All Blues, oops. Best to get the Miles and Cannonball solos together first. In other words, works that are not too complex ( harmonically or rhythmically) and are within your present vocabulary. Since I had never practiced, played OR read groupings of fives or sixes, let alone even played much double time (I was 15 at the time) there was really no way I was going to get the Trane solo on paper, let alone on my horn. So! Plan B: Chet Baker, Lee Morgan, early Freddie, Miles (Kind of Blue) Louis, Clark Terry, Harry 'Sweets' Edison, Nat Adderly, Kenny Dorham,etc...(not just trumpet players...)
I transcribed about 30 solos on paper (and many more by ear) and learned a lot from the process. Eartraining, rhythmic and harmonic knowledge, phrasing( someone told me to write down every detail from short and long phrasings to breathe marks,etc-really helped my reading) and of course, memorization skills. My advice- Live with the solo for awhile, sing it, learn the tune, sing along with the solo,YES, write it out (it will take less time the more you do it)and finally, turn the paper over until you can play it by heart. LASTLY! If you really can't get the complete solo-check out a correct transcription of the solo (and or tune, this applies to lifting tunes too) and analyze the areas of your hearing that are weak! At the same time, disregard everything I just said and put on your favorite recording and jam along, 'fishing for fingers' (as Clark Terry says) until you get as much, if not ALL of what you are playing along with.
Last thought- someone once advised learning ALL of the solos and tunes from the album/CD? that you are into. Makes sense- it's a lot of work but gets you into more than just the ONE solo you may be after. HAVE FUN!!!

trumpetdiva1

Ingrid,

Clark Terry says “imitate, assimilate, and innovate.” How long did it take you to emerge and find your own voice where you felt like you had reached the innovation stage? Do you remember the exact moment in time you reached it? How many years? Can you emerge with your own style without composition skills? I would think that you need both, but I am not sure that it is always true. Is this combination what makes it truly innovative?

Finally, I agree with John in that there is so much out there to “absorb” (Clark Terry’s “assimilate”) that I just decided to focus on Art Farmer, Thad Jones, and Kenny Dorham for some time, thanks to Michael McLaughlin’s ideas from the “What Have You Been Listening to Lately?” thread, but I will throw in a few others like Chet so that I can get more stuff under my belt before it becomes too hard. I have only done a few transcriptions and some memorization of solos. I’ve noticed that it has increased my accuracy when I go to play written music. It is time to go transcribe and get more ear training down.

Janell

trumphat

A great place to start transcribing is with Jim Snidero's "Easy Jazz Conception", published by Advance Music. All the players are top notch, so the language of jazz is expertly demonstrated. The solos are short, well constructed and use changes from what could be called the standard jazz repertoire. I give my students the cd - no book - and have them learn to scat sing the solo first, then play it by ear, then write it out, then learn the head from the original source and finally improvise their own solo over the track with just the changes. This three book series is a great learning tool.