Billy B

Ingrid,

I guess I must be getting old. After the gig a few nights past I was at the bar, imagine that, eavesdropping on a couple of the young guys. They both have college teaching jobs and are great players. The crux of their conversation was on academics. I suddenly realized that an entire generation has evolved that never heard Miles, Dizzy, Woody Shaw, Stan Kenton, Buddy Rich, etc. Their entire point of reference is from recordings and books. They speak of the best place to get a degree, the best place to teach. The same conversation the legit guys were having when I was their age. Has academia provided the vehicle for the preservation of Jazz or has it become an elitist club that limits the common man's accessibility to this music called Jazz?

trpt2345

This is at least partly a natural progression. My students today have no way to experience what I experienced (seeing Miles, Dizzy, Joe Henderson, Don Cherry, Woody Shaw, Mingus, Ellington, etc). Part of it is being in Des Moines;if you were in a bigger urban enviornment you would know people who had access to these giants. Oral tradition is very important. We're just about to hire at our school a sax player who played both with Count Basie and Earl Hines; that's an experience you can't duplicate and he'll be able to impart direct first hand knowledge from those masters to our students. But eventually those guys will be gone too, and then what do you do? At least in jazz everything (more or less) is recorded and if you have the ability to transcribe recordings you can get to the real meat of the tradition. Sam Rivers used to say, "If you can deal with records you can sit at the feet of the masters."

Michael McLaughlin

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing.
Benjamin Franklin

Billy B

Being in Des Moines is not the point. We have an airport, running water, in door plumbing, etc. Ask Ingrid, she's even been here a couple times.

The artists I mentioned were dead before these guys were in high school. The question is in the last sentence.

DLoeffler

I think it depends upon who you are speaking with and what that persons focus is regarding the art form as to whether they are elitist or simply preserving jazz. Then, how are they preserving it - through performance, lecture, analysis? Good question but I don't think there is a definitive answer.

trpt2345

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Des Moines was a backwater. Even if it is. But in Chicago, for example, there are lots of guys still alive who played with the elders. They are a living link to the history. Von Freeman, Mwata Bowden, John Baney, John Young, Richie Corpolongo,Franz Jackson, Bob Dogan, Bill Yancey, etc., (I am omitting so many) who played with guys who were The Guys and can provide a living link to younger players. The aural and oral tradition is essentially important in jazz. This is an alternative to the Jazz Education Industry that dominates so much of the education scene at the secondary (and even the college) level now. You can find old guys like that in New Orleans, San Francisco, New York, Philly, DC, Boston, etc. I'd say if you're a youngster and want to learn jazz and you live in Omaha or something you better move somewhere else. I grew up in Minneapolis and got out of there as fast as I could.

Michael McLaughlin

bas

Michael McLaughlin[/quote]
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Des Moines was a backwater. Even if it is.

Wow....pretty harsh! Have you ever been there??



Michael McLaughlin[/quote]
I grew up in Minneapolis and got out of there as fast as I could.

I think alot of playwers that I've played with in the Twin Cities would heartily disagree with you there.



Michael McLaughlin[/quote]
The aural and oral tradition is essentially important in jazz.

I think that this MUST and does exist in a good jazz education at any level. That is not to say that it does exist everywhere, but a solid institution will base everything on this point.



Michael McLaughlin[/quote]
I'd say if you're a youngster and want to learn jazz and you live in Omaha or something you better move somewhere else.

I couldn't disagree more with this point! It is proven in the part of the country in which I live. I will say that as a performer it does get tricky, but a good creative scene can and does exist outside of major metropolitan areas.

Seems to be quite a closeminded elitist attitude...I hope that I am wrong because you seem to be a wonderful teacher have many great things to add to this forum.

trpt2345

Yes, I have been in Des Moines many times for gigs, we do travel out of town. If you like Des Moines and think there is a thriving and creative scene there or in Omaha, good for you. But I know for example when Victor Lewis was in Omaha he left to go to NY. And here in Chicago when someone gets past a certain level they usually go to NY, or LA. I learned most of what I know about jazz from my time in NY studying with guys like Sam Rivers and Lee Konitz and Marc Copland. I didn't learn it in Minneapolis. (My one jazz teacher there was Mickey McClain who moved to NY). My theory about how you learn jazz is you find the best musician that you possibly can and attach yourself to him or her and soak up what they know. Then you play with as many people who kick your ass as possible. You have to play in bands where you're the worst musician in the group in order to get better. Elitist? I don't know. But I bet on any given Saturday night one could field a better band in Chicago or NY or LA or SF than you could in St. Paul, Omaha, Boise, etc. Al Vizzutti left Montana. So did Jack Walrath. You gotta go where the action is. Just my opinion and Your Mileage May Vary.

Michael McLaughlin

You may delay, but time will not.
Benjamin Franklin

stchasking

Slamming Des Moines. Dig the hole deeper. Jump in.

JustinSmith

There are great musicians and teachers everywhere around the world.

That being said, there may be a lot more going on, on a random Tuesday night in NYC.

bas

I totally agree that a high population center is obviously going to have a greater base for gigs and players Micheal, no argument there at all. No problems with most of your insightful comments in fact.

The only problem that I have is the implication that the quality of education and quality of performers/performance are all that inferior in the nooks and crannies of this country. There are little pockets of worldclass musicians all over the place...I have experienced it and have heard the same from many other musicians. DSM and Omaha are definitely NOT good examples of this....agreed!

There are also some educational programs in these places
whose players and teachers would knock your socks off. Teaching the art the right way rather than the easy convenient way.

All to say Micheal, you are not wrong in your points, but I know that cities are not the only place to deal with creative music on a very high level, both in performance and education.

Love to discuss this more if you would like to IM me....